Leading Conversations
Conversations between J.D. Pearring, Director of Excel Leadership Network, and church planting leaders, innovators, and coaches from around the country.
Leading Conversations
Conversation with Jay Kim
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Has your faith ever been shaken to its core? Join us as Jay Kim from Westgate Church in Silicon Valley recounts his profound spiritual journey, marked by his mother's radical conversion from agnosticism to devout Christianity. Relive the 1990s evangelical youth culture with Jay, who opens up about his faith deconstruction during college and how a small group of steadfast mentors reignited his belief, steering him towards a calling in ministry. Discover how these transformative years reshaped his career aspirations from business to church leadership, setting him on a path of service and spiritual growth.
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Faith Journey and Deconstruction Process
NoneWelcome to the Leading Conversations podcast sponsored by the Excel Leadership Network . On each episode , jd Paring will have conversations with church planting pastors and leaders from around the country . You can learn more about how to connect with Excel at the end of this podcast . Let's join JD now and listen in on this leading conversation .
J.D. PearringWelcome to another episode of the Excel Leading Conversations podcast . We are so happy today to have with us Jay Kim from the San Jose area , Saratoga , San Jose , South Bay . Jay , thanks for being here .
Jay KimThanks so much for having me . Yeah , looking forward to it .
J.D. PearringIs it another beautiful day in the Bay ?
Jay KimAlways is . Yeah , it always is . It's been a hot week , but I'll take 90 degrees over below zero .
J.D. PearringOkay , Well , you are pastoring at Westgate Church now and two locations . You're sitting in your South Hills location now . I see the sun coming through the window . Looks like a beautiful day .
Jay KimYeah , yeah , yep , westgate Church , kind of right in the heart of Silicon Valley . Yeah , we've got congregations in two different parts of the city and yeah , it's a beautiful church . I'm grateful to be here .
J.D. PearringWell , we're grateful to have you . Let's just get right into it . Tell us , growing up , how you came to Christ , what that was like .
Jay KimYeah , I mean I grew up going to church . Obviously I don't remember , but when I was born neither of my parents were followers of Jesus . I think they both would have considered themselves probably agnostics . But my mother had a pretty radical conversion experience when I was two and it was one of those stories where she went from zero to a hundred overnight . So she became literally overnight . You know this deeply passionate , committed follower of Jesus and so that's all I remember of her . You know , for as far back as my memory goes , she has always been one of the most passionate followers of Christ that I know . She still is to this day .
Jay KimSo I grew up going to church . I grew up very much sort of entrenched and enmeshed in the 1990s youth ministry subculture , evangelical youth ministry subculture . So yeah , I was a church kid growing up . And then in college , my early years of college , between 18 and 20 or 21 or so , just for a couple of years I went through what is sadly now a pretty common story for many people who grew up in church . I went through a deconstruction of faith season where I walked away from my faith , walked away from the church . So I spent a couple of years just sort of wandering and seeking and searching and then , long story short , made my way back to faith , to Jesus and eventually the church . In my very early 20s , when I was 20 or 21 , through a small group of guys they invited me to their small group , and I think it was then that I really sort of made faith my own , rather than the faith of my mother that I had inherited . And so that was over 20 years ago now , and uh , yeah , that's kind of the story .
J.D. PearringWas that in a college group or where were you at school ?
Jay KimUh no , I was at a local state university here in San Jose , at San Jose state university . No , these were guys . It wasn't . It wasn't a college ministry , it wasn't a ministry at all , really , at least not in an official capacity . These were guys that were a handful of years older than me , so I'm like 20 , 21 .
Jay KimThese guys were mid to late twenties , but they had been one of them had been my small group leader when I was in middle school and high school , when he was a college student , and even when I walked away from my faith and walked away from the church , this group of guys three guys in particular they just kept tabs on me , they kept reaching out , they kept loving me and inviting me to things , and I'd play basketball with them pretty regularly , grab meals .
Jay KimSo I maintained a friendship and a relationship and I didn't really know it at the time , but really like a mentoring type of relationship with these guys . And then they had this thing , monday nights , where they would just get together at one of the guy's houses and you know they'd like play video games and watch Monday night football and eat dinner and just hang out till the wee hours of the night , and so they started inviting me to that , but once the night every Monday , once the evening got later and later it would , the conversations would turn to more meaningful stuff , and so I just kept going to that on Monday nights and and that's really where I , you know , walk back toward Jesus . So , yeah , eternally grateful for those guys .
J.D. PearringThat's . That's a really cool story of them staying connected with you . Did you have a call to ministry ?
Jay KimYeah , it was shortly after I started hanging with these guys and re-engaged my faith . All of them were still serving in a volunteer capacity at the church where I had grown up . They were all either like one of them was serving as , like you know , a volunteer worship leader , and then the other two guys were small group leaders . They continued being small group leaders in the youth ministry at the church and eventually , once I made my way back to faith and back to Jesus and eventually back to that church , I just really wanted the joy and the purpose and significance that these guys had . So I just kind of decided I think I'll just kind of do what they do . And so they were all volunteering as small group leaders in the youth ministry . So I thought , well , I guess I'll do that . So I started . I became a small group leader for seventh grade boys and I was going to San Jose State .
Jay KimAt the time I was studying business . I was working at a bank . I thought at that time I would just graduate from college with my business degree and keep working at the bank and be like a bank manager . I thought that would be my career . But I found myself , once I became a small group leader , just waking up every day , not thinking about school , not really thinking about work or even just my social life .
Jay KimI found myself waking up every day thinking about my small group and unable to manage my own sort of excitement , for the next time I would be with these kids Because I was learning so much from the questions they were asking and I was watching , sort of experiencing my own faith , you know , come alive in some really special ways . So long story short that you know , through some conversations with some mentors , so long story short that you know , through some conversations with some mentors , you know , in a discernment process , realized oh my gosh , you know I could actually maybe pursue doing this , you know , all the time . And that was when I really felt my first strong call to ministry . So I dropped out of San Jose State and enrolled at a small Christian college that was in town at the time and became a youth pastor , and that was in the early 2000s .
J.D. PearringWow , that's quite radical . Well , hey , let me go back and ask you this question . It just kind of hit me that you walked through this time of deconstructing your faith and then you came back . Walked through this time of deconstructing your faith and then you came back . Do you have any , uh , recommendations or advice for either people who are going through that deconstructive stage or they , you know , maybe their kids or their younger siblings are going through that ?
Jay Kimyeah , I mean lots of thoughts . I think the first thing I would say is I think there's a misunderstanding that doubt or skepticism is somehow antithetical to faith . But I actually think doubt and skepticism is a natural part of faith . It's a natural part of one's faith journey . So that's the first thing I would say . If you are in a season of doubt or even deconstruction , or you have a loved one , a child or a spouse or whoever that is going through that season , that does not mean necessarily that they are further from God than they once were . They might be , but it doesn't necessarily mean that . And I think it's important to hold people's doubts and skepticism as a gift . The fact that you know that they are doubting , that they're skeptical . It's painful for sure , I think , but it's also , it can be a gift , you know , because it's an open door . I would much rather go through a season of doubt and skepticism and go on the journey toward a more you know , a much more deeper , richer faith , than continue to just perpetually live in the shallows of faith . I think thoughtfulness and asking questions , that's always been a part of the Christian tradition . So that's the first thing I would say . The second thing I would say is you know , there is sort of that whole concept of deconstruction , which this is a different conversation for another time but there's not even really any like true agreement on what deconstruction is . You know , it's sort of it takes on a life of its own based on the person talking about it or journeying through it . Whatever deconstruction is like for you or for the person that is deconstructing in your life , I think it's really important that we embrace the reality that deconstruction is only as helpful as it's only helpful if we see it as a precursor to reconstruction . It's only helpful if we see it as a precursor to reconstruction . Otherwise , deconstruction just leaves us with like the rubble of our old faith , but it gives us nothing to move forward into . So I think that would be the second thing I would say is you know , sure , if you're in a season of deconstruction , do that , but do it with people who love you and care about you and are willing to hold your tensions and your questions with you for the sake of moving toward reconstruction .
Jay KimWhatever you're reconstructing , you've got to reconstruct something . And so I think that second part gets lost quite a bit , because you know that word , deconstruction . It's kind of like sexy now People , you know , like talking about it and it's kind of like a weird badge of honor Some people wear like , oh , I've deconstructed X , y and Z and really , by definition , if all you do is deconstruct , then all you've done is like destroy a thing . You've not really built anything beautiful in its place . So I think reconstruction is probably more important than deconstruction . But at the same time you cannot reconstruct unless you've deconstructed something .
Jay KimAnd there are things you know in sort of I would say like , that are outside of like the biblical vision for Christian faith . There are things that have been attached , peripheries , peripherals that you know have been attached to like modern Western evangelical subculture that we probably do need to deconstruct from historic Orthodox Christian faith . So all that work is necessary and good as long as we keep reconstruction at the forefront . You know that that's what we're after . So what's ? Let me put you on the spot here . What's one item you think we need to deconstruct Try not to get in too much trouble here faith as being a version like a spiritualized version , of moralistic , therapeutic deism that Christianity in the West for many people is really just about pursuing a moral life .
Jay KimIt's about therapy . God is my therapist , just helping me feel better about myself and we sort of deify that . And when I read the New Testament and how Jesus describes discipleship to him , yes , there is a baseline morality to it and yes , there is a sort of care that comes our way because God is our loving father . But ultimately all of those things are byproducts of a life surrendered . You know , jesus says take up your cross , which is an instrument of death . You know , and follow me .
Jay KimSo I think some of that needs to be deconstructed . And there's so much more . You know , I mean all the hot button issues . I think they're not as nuanced as they should be . They're more complex than it seems on Twitter or Facebook , but for sure , I think , concerns about things like Christian nationalism , where we conflate our sort of nationalistic allegiance to our allegiance to Jesus . I do think in some circles robust , rich Christian faith has been sort of subsumed by political ideology . So some of that stuff I think needs to get deconstructed . So , yeah , I mean there's a lot . You know , we can go on and on talk about sexuality and gender , whatever else . There's so much . But yeah , those could all be different separate podcast conversations .
J.D. PearringSure , sure , sure . Well , thanks for taking that little road trip with me . Let's get back . So you go to the Christian college , you become a youth pastor . Then what happened ?
Jay KimYeah , so I started serving in youth ministry . My first full-time youth ministry role was at a church called Church on the Hill here in San Jose and I was a youth pastor there for eight years and during that time we didn't have a college young adult ministry at the church . So about four years into my time there , we launched a college young adult ministry . So I was kind of overseeing next-gen ministries college young adults , high school , middle school with the support of a wonderful team . That college young adult ministry sort of began , you know sort of unearthing and unlocking some things in me that I didn't know were there . So I ended up leaving Church on the Hill with their blessing to go help plant a church here in San Jose that's still going . It's a wonderful , beautiful church called Awakening . So I was a part of the launch team that launched Awakening back in 2012 . So it was 12 years ago .
Jay KimAnd then from there I joined the team at Westgate , where I'm on staff now , as a teaching pastor , and I only served as a teaching pastor at Westgate for like two or three years and then I left to go co-lead a smaller church in Santa Cruz which is about 30 minutes south of San Jose a beautiful , wonderful church in Santa Cruz called Vintage Faith . So I co-led that church with a dear friend of mine , dan Kimball , for four years . And then , in the middle of those four years , westgate Church , the elders and my predecessor here , steve Clifford , who I think has been on your podcast they reached out and said , hey , would you consider coming back and going through the process of possibly a succession transition , leadership transition season here at Westgate ? So , after two years of conversation and prayer and discernment , jenny and I , my wife and I and our family we came back to Westgate in 2020 . And then I stepped into the lead pastor role here at the start of 2022 . So , yeah , that's been my whole sort of 20-year journey in ministry .
Church Leadership and Succession Planning
J.D. PearringYou mentioned several times that you were at a beautiful church , a healthy church . Sounds like you've had some great church experiences .
Jay KimI have yeah , I mean honestly , I've been on staff at four different churches in 20 years and every church , including our church now , every church has its flaws and fragility and frailty . It's just the natural byproduct of imperfect people trying to learn and live the way of Jesus together . So , yeah , of course none of our churches have been perfect . There is not a perfect church , never has been , never will be . But , yes , I'm grateful for all four . There was real , I would say , at all four , to varying degrees . I think there has been real health , you know , at the leadership level , from the elder board on down , and of the love amongst the team , you know , a joy and friendship and kinship in serving in ministry in the trenches together . So , yeah , I'm really grateful . I've just had generally really beautiful , wonderful , life-giving experiences as a pastor .
J.D. PearringI would say that that's not always the norm . What do you attribute that to ?
Jay KimYeah , God's grace no , I mean God's grace . I , I don't know , I really don't know . I , I will say I've had the great privilege of being able to serve , uh , alongside and under some wonderful , humble , godly leaders . So , like many of them , um real genuine , honest , transparent um , you know , where accountability is not shunned but invited . Uh , a simplicity . I think there's been a simplicity to all of these churches , not not in a negative way , but in a really positive way . Simplicity along the lines of just , you know , keeping um first things first . So , yeah , I just think it's God's grace and his grace expressing itself in many ways , but particularly in just the great gift I've had to be surrounded by some amazing leaders , yeah , incredible men and women .
J.D. PearringWell , that's great . That's great for you , and I wish we just had more of that . So I think a lot of that just comes down to the leader being a solid leader . Talk about your church planting experience . You jumped into that . What was that like ?
Jay KimYeah , it was really hard . I don't recommend it for the faint of heart . Yeah , it was really tough , but beautiful and profound , and I learned so much in that season that I'm not sure I could have learned in any other type of environment . Like I said , the church is still going strong , stronger than it was when I was there , which I'm really grateful for . I planted the church with a dear friend of mine named Ryan Ingram , who was the lead pastor , still is the lead pastor , and I supported him in a number of ways .
Jay KimYeah , it was , you know , like on a physical , mental , emotional level . There's just nothing like the experience of watching God give birth from day one to a new thing , and God does new things all the time . We feel like at Westgate we just talked about this on Sunday we feel like God's doing a new thing here as well , not because we're conjuring something up or it's a strategy . We just sense like , oh my gosh , is God doing a new thing ? So God does new things in churches , young and old , of course , but it's a very unique experience to have a front row seat to a literal new thing , a community that did not exist coming into existence . It's just God moves in very unique ways in those seasons . Um . So , and the way it , you know , the way it sort of galvanizes , not just like the staff or the pastors but the entire community . It's , it's a profound thing to watch and witness .
Jay KimYou know it , really it's hard to deny in church planting the spirit of God because , um , almost every day you're just clinging to the reality that , oh geez , like God , if you don't do this , it's not going to happen . You know , and that's true in my context now , but it's harder for me to see it and feel it at a literal , baseline level , me to see it and feel it at a literal baseline level . But in church planting it's like , literal , you know like , oh gosh , the school that we're renting for our gatherings has an event this weekend . Now they're telling us we can't meet in the room where we normally meet and we don't have a meeting place . God , if you don't do this , it's not going to happen . Like we don't have any answers . It's Wednesday and Sunday is four days away , or whatever you know like . So you know , watching God show up , you know witnessing his faithfulness in situations like that at a very visceral level , um , was a beautiful thing , it deepened my faith for sure and ways that , um , I think will be with me forever .
J.D. PearringOh , that's a great testimony of church planting . I have a little PTSD , though , when you said hey , you can't meet there on Sunday . Like oh , no , yeah , you know what that's like . Our setup team came up to me afterwards and said we're pretty sure we can give you 15 minutes . I'm like what are you talking about ? Well , we can set some cars up on this side , we can get everything set up . We can do 15 minutes , but by that time the police will probably be here . So , like I was just talking about doing it on 99 . Yeah .
J.D. PearringYeah , hey talk about the the transition . The Talk about the transition , the succession plan with Steve Clifford .
Jay KimYeah , I mean , you've had Steve on . You know Steve , he's , you know , I tell people all the time he's the best leader . I know he's still obviously a dear friend , but he's really my pastor . I'm proud to say that . I've said that publicly many , many times and he still pastors me . I just had lunch with him a week ago , you know , and he was pastoring me then . So , yeah , you know , I um I first got to know Steve during the church planting days , so right around 2011 , when we were sort of building up to launch this church .
Jay KimUm , as you know , jd , in church planting , you know , typically you don't have an elder board , cause you don't really have a church yet , you don't have , like , established leaders . So , uh , the first couple of years of our church plant we did not have an elder board . We had an advisory board made up of um senior leaders . You know , pastors , lead pastors from around the area in our city , men that we just admired and respected . They were our board and Steve was on that board . So that's how I really got to know Steve closely as a friend , because once a month , at this little coffee shop in downtown Campbell , we'd get together at 6 am and just share coffee and give updates and pray for one another for a couple of hours and give updates and pray for one another for a couple of hours and really struck up a friendship there and he began investing in my life and pouring into me as a pastor , really intentionally from that moment on . So our friendship goes way back and there's so much I admire about Steve . But one of the things it's in the top five of the many things I admire so much about him One of the things is just his humility and his integrity . He truly is one of the most humble and integrous leaders I've ever met and you know that should kind of be a given that a Christian leader should be humble and and lead and serve and live with integrity . Uh , but sadly that's not always true , um , but it is often true . But in Steve's life I've seen humility and integrity in ways that are sort of beyond the norm , you know , just extraordinary , like really extraordinary ways . So when he invited me to go through this process of succession and transition , he was really honest .
Leadership Transition and Humility
Jay KimIt was a very unique situation . It wasn't like hey , jay , on this date I would like you to come and become the lead pastor of our church . It didn't work that way . He said Jay , we would like you to prayerfully consider coming back to Westgate without a guarantee that you'll become the lead pastor . We'd like you to join our team and serve as a teaching pastor again , but serve on the executive team right alongside me . Come to elder meetings and let's do that for a year and then the elders will decide at that time . And Steve was saying like I won't even decide . The elders will decide at that time if they feel like you are the right candidate to present to our congregation , because our bylaws state that we need a congregational vote for a lead pastor change . So I would not have . I mean , that's not an ideal scenario . I would not recommend that sort of situation One year risk .
Jay KimYeah , I would not recommend that to anybody in terms of you know if you're being invited into a succession or transition plan . But the reason Jenny and I said yes to it one , we just sensed that God was telling us like this is the next thing , whatever happens . But two , it's because I just so trusted Steve . You know , he , he , he told me if we do this , I and you know , and our elders and our congregation affirm that you , you are the next lead pastor of this church . He told me from the get-go that I'm just going to get totally out of the way and I will become your biggest cheerleader and I will do exactly what you sense God is asking you to ask me to do . And I believed him .
Jay KimAnd that is not an easy thing to do for someone who has led a church like Westgate for 20 years which was Steve's story and led a church through immense growth . It was like 10x growth in terms of just numbers , although that's not the primary measurement of growth , but just to paint a picture of who Steve is . He led this church . God did some profound things in and through this church under his leadership . So to let go of that and to get out of the way for a young leader like me , who had really very minimal experience leading and zero experience leading a congregation of this size I mean not even close to this size . I had never led a congregation like this , so it was a big risk .
Jay KimBut he sensed that that's what God was asking him to do and so when that time came and our transition took place , I knew this would happen because , again , he is so humble and leads with so much integrity . But he really did it , and he didn't do it because it was easy . He did it because he sensed it was the right thing to do . So he really just became my biggest cheerleader and sounding board , and and that that's what has made this transition , I think , for all intents and purposes , so healthy . It's not , it's really not me , it's God's grace . And then at a human level , it's like 95% , just Steve has been so humble , you know , and integrous and has sacrificed in ways that most people don't know , you know , in order to help this church move into the future . So , yeah , it's been a really beautiful process . I'm grateful for it , I'm grateful for the opportunity I have for as long as I have it , and yeah , let me .
J.D. PearringI'm going to ask you about a leadership tip , but before I do , you work a little bit with my son , scott , who's on . Yeah , tell me what's your take on Scott . Tell me what's your take on Scott ? Well , we can edit this part out .
Jay KimI know I was about to make a joke but I don't want to you can make a joke .
Jay KimIn all seriousness , I love Scott . I love Scott and Sue and the boys . You know they're an incredible family . First of all , beyond Scott for those who don't know , jd , son Scott is one of our elders here at our church , um , but beyond his role as an elder and as a spiritual leader in our church , I just love his family and I I've witnessed up close , you know not like oh gosh , he's such a great elder , but I've really seen up close and personal how good of a husband and a dad he is , which gives me so much confidence in everything else that he does . And he does a lot at our church . He's not just like an elder who's like , yeah , I come to the elder meetings and then contribute my opinion and leave . He is so engaged , we text all the time and he's just shoulder to shoulder with me on so many levels , literally shoulder to shoulder . Some people know this , but we're in the middle of a campaign right now and as a part of the campaign I had to have like I think the grand total number was like 63 one-on-one coffee meetings with folks in our church , which is a lot . Over the course of like a month and a half it was intense .
Jay KimAnd Scott , who has a not just a full-time job but runs his own company that is very busy and all these coffees were basically in the middle of the day . He joined me for like two thirds of those . I like literally did not know how he did it . Like I would ask him all the time how are you doing this ? You're running a company and you have all these clients , you're so busy and really successful . But he did it , and that's Scott to it too . T . It's what he does all the time . We were just texting or emailing the other day about something that he's helping us do in like a month , you know , this big gathering that he's helping curate . I was like I don't know how he does it , but I'm just so grateful for him , grateful for our entire elder board , but you know , especially people like Scott .
J.D. PearringSo yeah , Well , he speaks very highly of you and Steve and the church , and he's always talking about the I don't want to say schemes , but the vision that you guys have for what's happening . So thank you for taking care of him . It's great as a father to see a son . Oh gosh , no , I feel like he's taking care of me . So thank you for for taking care of him .
Jay KimIt's great as a father to see a son , oh gosh , no , I feel like he's taking care of me . So thank you for raising him . I thank his mother , that's right . That's right , good answer .
J.D. PearringHe was just this always been about the smartest kid I've ever met . His younger brother and him will argue about that , but uh , anyway , hey , uh , we're running out of time here , but I want to give you a chance to give us a leadership tip . What's your ? You're talking to leaders . What does jay kim say to them ?
Jay Kimoh gosh , I don't know . There's so much um , I don't know . I'll just share the first thing that comes to mind Go slow is what I would say . I think most people , especially in church , but in all facets of life , I think most people who , in the secular world you would say , sort of rise to high levels of leadership , I think in church world we would say those who are called and invited to central leadership roles for most of us , secular and in vocational ministry .
Jay KimI think a part of that happens because there's a sort of natural drive in us , a desire to get things done , to accomplish , to succeed , to win , to be first , all of those things that aren't necessarily in and of themselves inherently bad , but they all have potential danger latent within them . And I think one of the dangers is the temptation to be first . And I think my encouragement would be that the biblical vision for leadership is not to be first , it's to be faithful . And that distinction has been really helpful for me , because often I am tempted to be first , I want to win , I want to be the whatever fill in the blank with whatever awesome adjective , but I am always reminded , and often have been reminded through my own shortcomings and failures and unnecessary pain that I've caused because of my own sort of brokenness .
Jay KimI'm reminded that God is El Olam , the eternal God . He's not bound by time and he's writing an eternal story . And our 30 , 40 years in local church ministry , our 70 , 80 years just living and breathing on this planet as it currently is , it's just a blip on the big , long , overarching story of the universe that God is writing . So trust that story and just be faithful to the small part he's asking you to play , rather than putting that pressure on yourself to produce and create and curate whatever version of success the world tells you you need to create . You know I think those are all lies . It's a myth . So be faithful , you know . Don't try so hard to be first . I think that would be my encouragement .
J.D. PearringThat's excellent . That's really a good word . Last thing just have a new book out , Listen , listen , speak .
Jay KimCan you tell us ?
J.D. Pearringabout where to get it . Yeah , I out .
Jay KimListen , listen , speak . Can you tell us about where to get it ? Yeah , I mean you can get it anywhere they sell books , amazon or wherever else .
Jay KimYeah it's just a book about learning to quiet the noise in our lives , to be able to actually listen and hear the voice of God , which is always speaking , and then , in turn , to be able to speak into the noise of our day in a way that's actually heard . So I hope it's a practically helpful book for folks , especially as we enter you know , as church leaders the political season and election year and all of that .
J.D. PearringFun times . Well , excellent book . I read it and highly recommend it . Solid leadership and the great succession . Your humility and attitude obviously has helped those churches that you've been involved with be beautiful , as you say . So , thanks , so much , Thanks for your time .
Jay KimYeah , thank you so much . Yeah , joy being on with you .
NoneThanks for joining the Leading Conversations podcast . We hope that you found it both helpful and encouraging . At Excel Leadership Network , our focus is on the church planter rather than the church . If you'd like to find out more about us , visit our webpage at excelnetwork . org . Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss any future episodes . See you next time with another leading conversation .
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