Alan Adler: 0:06

Welcome to the Leading Conversations podcast sponsored by the Excel Leadership Network. On each episode, jd Paring will have conversations with church planting pastors and leaders from around the country. You can learn more about how to connect with Excel at the end of this podcast. Let's join JD now and listen in on this leading conversation.

J.D. Pearring: 0:30

Welcome to another rendition of Leading Conversations with Excel Leadership Network. Today we are happy to have the incredible Roy Gruber with us Mets fan who's living in Utah these days, so thanks for being here, Roy.

Roy Gruber: 0:47

My pleasure, JD, thanks for having me.

J.D. Pearring: 0:50

We were just talking about the Juan Soto new signing with the Mets. Give me your take on that, wow.

Roy Gruber: 0:57

Christmas Day has come early for Mets fans, and it doesn't happen often, so I'm good, I'm set, I don't need anything for Christmas now.

J.D. Pearring: 1:09

My team. It seems like whenever they sign one of those big contracts it's the kiss of death for that poor player. But hey, let's get into it. Tell us growing up how you came to Christ, and all that.

Roy Gruber: 1:25

Yeah, so I was born in northern New Jersey, about 45 minutes west of New York City, to German missionary parents. So my parents are from Germany. They became missionaries, went to the South Pacific my brother and sister were born there became missionaries, went to the South Pacific, my brother and sister were born there. And then my parents were brought to the US branch of that German-based mission, which is in exotic northern New Jersey. So that's where I was born. I feel like my brother and sister got the best part of that deal being born in an island in the South Pacific. But yeah, that's where I was born and raised.

Roy Gruber: 2:01

And so I, you know, grew up going to church. I like to say when I was a kid I had a drug problem. I was drugged to church all the time because that's what my parents did and I, when I became a teenager, I really imagined the day when I could make my own decision about that and not go. And then it was about age 16, almost 17,. I went on a youth retreat.

Roy Gruber: 2:27

My friend and I just to tell you where I was at the time we smuggled beer into this church retreat and God met me in a very powerful way at a communion service on that youth retreat and sitting there I'd heard verses of the Bible, heard the gospel, heard you know all kinds of things about faith for my whole life. But in that moment it became very real, very personal, and I was just sitting there in my seat and just I don't know the conviction but also the love of God was just, you know, so heavy on me in that moment that it became very personal and very real. So that was a day across the line of faith kind of journeyed for a while without a lot of direction or mentorship. And so you know, my, my spiritual life was, I was very enamored with the things of God but I wasn't really growing.

J.D. Pearring: 3:23

Can I ask, just growing up as a missionary kid, did you speak German in the family?

Roy Gruber: 3:30

Yeah, we spoke German in our home. Both parents spoke German to us. We had to speak German back to my dad. We could speak English back to my mom. So before school, German was my first language.

J.D. Pearring: 3:44

Wow, do you speak it much today?

Roy Gruber: 3:46

Ein bisschen, aber es kommt mir nicht so leicht. Yeah, that's a little, but it doesn't come to me so easily anymore.

J.D. Pearring: 3:52

Okay, was there something your parents did well as just raising a ministry kid?

Roy Gruber: 4:02

You know, I mean, they must have done a great job if you're smuggling bear into the yeah, I'll own that 100 percent um.

Roy Gruber: 4:11

I think in terms of influence and impact on me faith-wise, my mom's faith um was joyful, it was genuine, and you, I had many arguments in my own mind of why I wanted to walk away from faith when I imagined that I would think of the person on an island in the middle of nowhere who'd never heard the gospel, and where do they go and where do they wind up and all of that. But the thing I could not get around was the genuineness and the joyfulness of my mother's faith, and she was the one who really wanted me to go on the youth retreat. I didn't even want to go, but I went because I respected her and I found out. You know she prayed for me and my two siblings every day and I just think there is no defense against the powerful prayer of a mom.

J.D. Pearring: 5:03

So you were talking?

Roy Gruber: 5:04

I think for sure that you were talking about, uh, just being a little bit older, trying to find direction yeah, and then I met, um, a man who was going to bible college I didn't even know such things existed at the time and, uh, we were playing soccer. I was playing a lot of soccer in that day, and he, uh, was a good soccer player, so I respected him, hung around him, and then one day, he invited me to what I came to know as my first small group. He said hey, there's a bunch of us getting together on a Wednesday night in the living room. We're going to study the Bible. You want to come? And I was saying, well, you know, I want to hang around you.

Roy Gruber: 5:38

I don't know what the rest entails, but that was really my first introduction to more than just doing church on a Sunday morning, and it was in the context of that small group where, one day, he looked at me and he said I think God has full-time ministry ahead for you. I thought that was the funniest thing I'd ever heard. I was going to school to be either in sports broadcasting or journalism, but you know, he said, well, just pray about it and we'll see what happens. Three months later, I was going to the same Bible college that he was attending. Uh, it took me about a year, though, to figure out that's really what God had. I even went there and just kind of said I don't know what this is, but we'll give it a try, and at the end of that year I was convinced that God really had called me into ministry.

J.D. Pearring: 6:21

Wow, well, sports broadcasting. Who was your idol from sports broadcasting? Who's the one?

Roy Gruber: 6:29

Jack Murphy and where the Padres used to play is Jack Murphy Stadium. So his brother, he was one of the original Mets broadcasters. He was a hoot to listen to on games. He just sounded like he was meant to do what he was doing in that moment and he enjoyed it every time. So it's easy to be drawn to people who are just consumed with their passion for what they're doing.

J.D. Pearring: 7:05

Wow.

Roy Gruber: 7:05

Was.

J.D. Pearring: 7:06

Lindsey Nelson, one of the announcers too.

Roy Gruber: 7:08

Yes, and his colorful sports coats, yes. Lindsey Nelson, bob Murphy and Ralph Kiner were the original Meds broadcasters for many, many years. Unfortunately, they're all gone now.

J.D. Pearring: 7:23

I think I've heard a little of those. But Lindsay Nelson used to do some radio football games and I'd go out jogging and he just had this incredible voice. So I heard my voice and realized that's not God's calling on my life. But anyway, you went to Bible college and that was kind of your call to ministry then.

Roy Gruber: 7:42

Yeah, really over the course of that year. And there was one professor I had there who was really instrumental. When I went to Bible college, you know, I gave up my beer smuggling and the other things you know that were a part of my life before Christ and that personal relationship. But when I went to Bible college I discovered that there were a lot of folks doing things that I would not expect at Bible college and I don't know if the details matter, but that really threw me for a loop at the beginning of that time because I thought, you know, my beer drinking soccer buddies seem to have more integrity than some of the people that I'm meeting at Bible college. What's up with that? And so I was ready to say you know who needs this? Because it just seems like a bunch of hypocrisy.

Roy Gruber: 8:28

And I had a professor that year his name is Dr McDaniel and his office door when he said if it's open you can come on in and we can chat. And so I did that and I talked to him about all of that and the struggle with that and he basically boiled it down to this and I remember this is a bit of a paraphrase he said you know, that's a real issue. But let me ask you this Are you going to let other people's behavior determine what God has in store for you? And that really called me away from looking around and looking more inside of my own heart and trying to discover what God had for me.

J.D. Pearring: 9:06

That is a wonderful question. That's incredible. That's a great question. So you went to Bible college.

Roy Gruber: 9:17

What happened after that? I got married. After that I met my wife at Bible college. She worked in the bookstore and I often loitered in the bookstore until I worked up the courage to ask her out. She's also a missionary kid. She grew up in South Africa and you know, I think even God's in those kind of details of bringing people together like that. So I got married, worked for a year, then went to seminary At the time it was called Biblical Seminary. They changed their name now it's Missio Seminary and during that time we attended a church and served in various roles. And then, when I finished at seminary there, they offered me a position on staff about five miles from where I grew up in northern New Jersey.

J.D. Pearring: 10:01

Oh wow, what did you do at the church? Oh wow, what did you do at the?

Roy Gruber: 10:03

When I started I was in charge of missions and family ministries, did some counseling with people and just coordinated a number of events. I did that for five years and then the lead pastor received a call to go to Colorado Springs and then I became the lead pastor there at that church in northern New Jersey and served in that role for eight years. And during that time I was on the mission board of WorldVenture, a sending missionary agency, and I met one of the staff members at the church where I am now and their pastor was retiring. He asked me if I'd consider it. I said absolutely not Very happy where I am. He said well, just pray about it. Sounded a lot like the guy in the living room saying I think God has full-time ministry ahead. No, I think that's funny, just pray about it. So my wife and I did and about 18 months later we wound up here in Ogden, utah in Northern Utah, and this is where we've been serving now for the last 20 years.

J.D. Pearring: 11:08

That's amazing. How does somebody from New Jersey get to Ogden? That's just mind-boggling.

Roy Gruber: 11:17

Yeah, and you know, as my wife and I were praying through that, we really came to believe that even our missions background prepared us for a place like Utah, which I like to think is the closest thing you can get to being in a foreign country without having to get a passport and change your money Because it's part of the US. But boy, the culture here is very, very different. It is predominantly Mormon LDS, and Mormonism is not just a faith, it is a culture, a way of life. There's a similarity of Judaism or Islam, where it's almost impossible to separate somebody's faith from their culture. They are basically one in the same and it's very much that way here. And so, as we prayed through that, made a couple visits here, we thought, you know, maybe even our backgrounds in missions have prepared us for being in a mission field like Utah. And I'll say this this is the other part of that equation In the state of Utah, 97% of the people here do not have a relationship with the Jesus of the Bible.

Roy Gruber: 12:27

That's a staggering number, and some people think 3% is a little bit high for those who are people who are following the Jesus of the Bible. There's a Jesus in Mormonism, but he's a different Jesus. He's the brother of Satan, he's our spirit brother and LDS folks are sincere, they are awesome, they're the best neighbors I've ever had, but it's a different faith. It's a different faith and it's exciting right now to be in a context where a lot of folks who grew up in Mormonism are doing some of their own research and feeling as though a lot of what has been shared with them about the history of their church and the Book of Mormon and things like that have not been accurate and so they have not given up on God. But many are giving up on their church experience and they're searching, they're searching and so we're seeing a lot of that happening and it's so exciting.

J.D. Pearring: 13:22

Wow, that does sound exciting. Let me just back up.

Roy Gruber: 13:44

Yeah, it's definitely a different culture. People are much more polite than they are in New Jersey. The vocabulary is not as raw as it was there, but undefined undefined many ways there was sports on Sunday.

Roy Gruber: 14:03

You began to compete in the church world with a lot of things that were happening on Sunday and here it's not and you know it's a different faith but that's not all bad either that there are aspects of Mormonism that have provided a positive influence in culture. So, for instance, we share with our Mormon friends a lot of our ethics, a value on family, a value on, you know, just being a person of integrity. A lot of those same values are around. It's the beliefs, it's the doctrines that are very, very different. So there are many starting points of conversation that are very easy with our Mormon neighbors, of conversation that are very easy with our Mormon neighbors and, god willing, they lead to just getting respectfully to the place of us talking about the differences and inviting people to check out the Jesus of the Bible.

J.D. Pearring: 14:59

Wow. So how are you reaching Mormons?

Roy Gruber: 15:04

Yeah, you know we are engaging our culture here primarily through compassion. You know, we really believe that so much of the New Testament points us in the direction. I was just reading this this morning in Romans, chapter 13, that to love your neighbor is to fulfill the law of God. In Romans 13, verse 11, I believe. And so what we do is we reach out with compassion, and I'll give you a couple examples Right now.

Roy Gruber: 15:35

In the Christmas season, every week between Thanksgiving and Christmas Eve, we do what we call Love Gives. Every week there is an effort outside of ourselves to serve people, either locally or around the world, and a couple examples of that we have filled boxes for teachers in local schools and we just give them no strings attached. We have no expectation that they're going to come and attend. We don't put any sort of strings on it and people have responded really well to that. We just did an event here this last Saturday where we packed over 270,000 meal packs dry meal packs for starving kids somewhere around the world, and we thought these were going to be opportunities for our people to serve. What we've discovered is people invite their friends and they show up in droves and these are people who are not following the Jesus of the Bible. They just hear about those kinds of events and they go. I want to be a part of that. I want to pack some meals because the world is hurting, the world is broken. I can't do everything, but I can do something and I want to join in something that's being done, you know, in a positive way, in our broken world. Another example of an ongoing ministry that we do is called God's Garage, and that's where people donate their vehicles. They get a tax write-off. We lease a space, a garage, and we have volunteers who fix those cars up and then we give them away to single moms, no strings attached. We're coming up on 200 cars given away and we have people who volunteer to help in that garage who are not yet people of faith, but they want to be around those kind of events. They get exposed to people who do love Jesus and follow Jesus and we've seen people come to faith that way. So we're trying to find many ways to engage our culture and our community with compassion and with love, and I think one of the key components to it is no strings attached, that there are no expectations.

Roy Gruber: 17:39

One of the other things we did and this is just this story. Every time I tell it I don't know if I can get through it without getting emotional here, but we packed some boxes last Valentine's Day and they were pink boxes and they were taken to brothels. We're in Utah, right next to Nevada, and from the eastern side of Nevada all the way over to the western side in Reno. There's Route 80 that goes the whole distance and we're right on Route 80. And we packed all these boxes and then a team from our church went out and delivered them to brothels, to the workers there, and it was a box that was communicating you know what? You matter to God, you matter to us, we care about you and we just want to bless you with a gift, no strings attached. Inside of that box there was a link to the website and there were all kinds of gifts.

Roy Gruber: 18:27

There was one lady who worked as a prostitute in Reno who got a box. There was a devotional inside her box. She started reading the Bible that was also in there and started doing this devotional and she sent us an email and she said I have chosen to leave prostitution. I'm now working minimum wage, but I believe God loves me and I thank you for the gift and I think God has a new life in store for me. Amazing, that's just the power of compassion, and I've said this to our staff a number of times here, that I think compassion is the new evangelism and it opens the doors. It doesn't automatically mean that somebody puts their faith and trust in Christ, but I think it opens the door to having those kinds of conversations, relationships, connections. That's the other thing. I think that surprised me here in utah is event outreach doesn't work here. What does work is relational evangelism is walking alongside people for the long haul, and compassion opens those doors to relationships into which we just pray. God opens a door in somebody's heart and life.

J.D. Pearring: 19:45

That's great. That's great. You're thinking about planting another church. How did that happen?

Roy Gruber: 19:55

Yeah. So when I was in New Jersey, we planted a church there and we had a large amount of people coming from a particular community to where our church was located. That one seemed like it was just a natural sort of unfolding that the community that people were coming from. Why don't we just put a church there? That church is still going great today. That was, wow, 25 years ago and that church is doing really well.

Roy Gruber: 20:23

And then coming here to Utah, one of the strategies that we've employed part of the Mormon thinking is that they are the one true church. All the others are corrupt, and evidence of that to a Mormon community would be that many churches struggle and are small and are on the verge of collapse or a closing, and there are many examples of that. Many of the churches in Utah are small. So here in Utah to have a church of some size communicates something even just beyond that, that it kind of blows up that category, that myth that exists. So for a while we have been building our church. We're in the middle of a building program right now to build a new auditorium. It should be finished in September of 25, and that will give us more opportunities. But as we look to the completion of that process of building. We also recognize that build and then maybe a few other things that we can expand will bring us to the point of maxing out our site here. And then what do we do beyond that? Now we could move the church. The church has done that once in its history before I became the pastor. We could do that again. Land is harder and harder to find here, but my belief, my conviction and it's a growing conviction is that after we max out this site, that we want to start new churches in communities where there are not good, thriving Christian churches and in Utah there's quite a few of those, and so there are many of those opportunities communities. So, as we got underway with our building project, I think one of the lead pastors' responsibility is to spend some time living in the future and, you know, just being ahead of issues and not reacting to them but planning for them, and so we're in the early stages of thinking about that and planning for that. But that's where the idea really originated is that we're going to max out this site. Then what? And my experience tells me that church planting is not only important but I think it's healthy to a body and the analogy that I've used with this and I saw this in New Jersey when we planted that church I thought, when we launched that church and we sent about 160 people out to start that church on day one which you know, I think you know is a healthy way to begin and I thought, well, we lost 160 people, but that's not what happened.

Roy Gruber: 22:59

The analogy I use with that it's like donating blood.

Roy Gruber: 23:03

I have O negative blood.

Roy Gruber: 23:04

It's the universal donor. The Red Cross contacts me at least twice a week for my blood and I like to donate blood and when I do, I was sitting there the last time and when they picked up the bag into which the blood went, I thought, wow, that's a lot. But six weeks later, a healthy body has replenished what was taken out and I discovered in that church plant in New Jersey that's how the body of Christ works too that we think we might be giving something but really we're not. A healthy body replenishes that and it's actually healthy for a body to donate blood and I believe that analogy has many for a body to donate blood and I believe that analogy has many ways in which it corresponds to church planning, because I think a healthy church body not only replenishes the people that go and become a part of a new church, but I think it also just makes that body healthier, the one that has cast that vision and carried that out and just been a part of something bigger than itself, and that is the kingdom of God.

J.D. Pearring: 24:10

So if you're looking for blood, contact Roy Gruber, Ogden, Utah that's all the address you'll need. So, hey, I really appreciate what you're doing. I appreciate your heart for planting, and I mean just expanding. You're doing a great job there in Utah. Give us a leadership tip or two lead yourself before you lead others.

Roy Gruber: 24:47

And I think in ministry we can pour all of our energies into everybody else in administration and all the projects that are there, but I learned the hard way that can get you pretty empty pretty quickly. And so I think self-leadership even needs to become before leading others, and I think to fuel our own hearts and lives and our spiritual life. You know, and what we do we're in the Bible every week, you know, as a primary communicator, but that can even become more of a rote familiarity. That is not life-giving. I think we need to fuel our own devotional life as much as we would encourage anybody else to do that, and maybe more so.

Roy Gruber: 25:31

And maybe that leads into the second tip, and this is something I heard a long time ago and I can't remember the pastor who said it, but it's not original to me. He said leaders are the example, not the exception. Said it, but it's not original to me. He said leaders are the example, not the exception. And I think sometimes in this era of a crisis in leadership, that there needs to be an example of integrity and a willingness to do what we're asking people to do and not to think that that's for other people, but not for ourselves. And so, yeah, I think we need to practice what we preach and not think that we get special exception. I think, instead, we need to set the example for what we're inviting people to be a part of.

J.D. Pearring: 26:18

Those are really, really good. You mentioned leading yourself and your devotional life. Can you tell us what you do? What are you doing to make that life-giving?

Roy Gruber: 26:28

Yeah, I like to read through the Bible in a year, and right now I'm using an app that gives me the reading plan throughout the whole year and then gives me devotional thoughts on those readings, and that's called the Bible Recap, and it is surprisingly, one of the five most popular apps right now in the United States is the Bible Recap you know Joe Rogan's way up there and some others and the Bible Recap is as well. Now, this next year, I also like to change it up, so I'm going to go through the Bible again, but next year I'm going to do it with Nikki and Pippa Gumbel, who started the Alpha course, and so they have a through-the-year app as well. I think technology has made fueling our devotional life as easy and opportunity as it's ever been. It's just a matter of whether or not we're going.

J.D. Pearring: 27:27

Wow, that sounds good. I haven't heard of that. The Bible Recap.

Roy Gruber: 27:34

The Bible Recap. Tara Lee Cobbler is her name, and she does a great job. You know, here's the number one thing that I hear from people who come on Sunday mornings. They go oh, it's so great to be here. When I read the Bible, I don't understand it. Well, the Bible Recap explains some of the challenging issues that there might be in passages, but then also gives some devotional thoughts as well, and it's about 10, 12 minutes, and so you read 10 to 15 minutes. It's under a half an hour and it has been a great blessing through this year, coming to the end of it now, that is good to know.

J.D. Pearring: 28:10

That is good to know. That's good to know. Hey, I don't know when the podcast will come out, but right now we're heading into the holidays. What's Christmas like in Utah?

Roy Gruber: 28:22

Christmas is not the biggest holiday in Utah. Halloween is crazy. In Utah, are you serious? People love Halloween. I mean, people spend thousands of dollars. Entire front yards are set up like cemeteries or skeletons that look like they're climbing up the side of homes. Yeah, they go all out for that.

Roy Gruber: 28:45

Christmas in the Mormon community is not nearly as big a deal as it is in the Christian community, which presents an opportunity to invite our LDS friends to experience Christmas Eve and the Christmas season. Many, many, many folks invite their Mormon friends to participate in these Love Gives events that we're doing. They show up in huge numbers and many of them are coming to faith, which is so exciting. God is doing something in Utah and I'll tell you here at Washington Heights we see it, but it's not only at Washington Heights.

Roy Gruber: 29:21

There are a number of churches that are seeing God do great, great things, so it's a season of opportunity here, but Christmas is downplayed to a great deal, and so is Easter. Easter is almost a non-event and again, it's one of those surprising differences in the Mormon culture the cross of Christ and Jesus shedding his blood and being tortured, and all of that. In LDS theology, they believe that Jesus made his sacrifice in the Garden of Gethsemane, and isn't it interesting that it keeps really the focus off of the cross and puts it elsewhere? So it's a different faith. There are many people who are wondering about that, asking questions about that and searching, and what a privilege it is to be able to point to Jesus.

J.D. Pearring: 30:18

Wow, I was not aware of that. Hey, can we end with? Do you have one story of a Mormon person coming to Jesus?

Roy Gruber: 30:30

Yeah, yeah. So my wife and I, after our services, we are in what we call the meet and greet room, so we invite people. Hey, if you're new here, or you and I have never had the opportunity to say hi, please stop by after the service. We won't keep you long, we just like to get to know you on a first name basis. The room's big, a lot of people here, but we want this to feel like family.

Roy Gruber: 30:50

Well, one day a woman walks in. She's got her head down, she just looks, you know, like she's got the weight of the world on her shoulders, and she tells us this is another story of our time getting through. She tells us on that day, which happens to be Mother's Day, she says my husband, who is staunch LDS, asked me a few weeks ago what do you want for Mother's Day? My kids had come to an event here and they just couldn't stop talking about coming to that kid's event. Can we go back to that church? Can we go back to that church? And it made me wonder. I'd never been in a church, but a Mormon church. Why would kids be so excited? They're not excited to go to our church. Why do they want to go back to this church. Why would kids be so excited? They're not excited to go to our church. Why do they want to go back to this church? So she said what I would like for my Mother's Day gift is to be able to go to that church. And so that day that was her living, her gift of coming to the church on Mother's Day. And she came in and told my wife and I about that. We prayed for her. I couldn't get through the prayer. My wife had to finish the prayer because it was so emotional to me that I thought my goodness, I, you know, grew up with it and wanted to walk away from it. Here's somebody who took the opportunity to receive a gift and what she asked for was going to church. So we pray for her and she walks out. We don't see her for a while.

Roy Gruber: 32:10

She walks back in six months later and she's a different person and she's got her head up and she is beaming. And she couldn't wait to come and tell my wife and I that my husband is letting me now come every other week and we still go to the Mormon church in between, on those off weeks, but then I'm coming here in the other weeks and he's letting me bring the kids and just so you know. You know I put my trust in Christ and so that was exciting and we celebrated and we prayed again and got emotional again and we see her leave and she comes back in about three weeks later and now she's holding hands with her husband, who is coming, and we met him and we prayed for both of them and for their family. We see them leave. He continues to be here. I don't know to this point if he's crossed the line of faith she has, her children have. They've all been baptized, not the husband but the wife and the children.

Roy Gruber: 33:06

But it's those kind of stories where they unfold over the span of time. Again, it's a relational thing, it happens over time. But that is one of many stories of LDS people who are seeing the difference when they are looking for the Jesus of the Bible and the grace that is found there, Because Mormonism, at its heart and soul, is a works-based faith. There's the word grace, but it is, after all, that you can do and so, like every other works-based faith in the world, Mormonism, at the end of the day, it's up to you to accomplish your salvation. And they are often blown away highly emotional when they discover that Jesus has accomplished everything necessary for a relationship with him thank you so much thanks for sharing that story.

J.D. Pearring: 34:00

That's just the inspiring and, uh, you know so God's working. He's working everywhere. He's even working in Utah. Hey, thanks, right, thanks for being on with us. Thanks for what you're doing. It's amazing to see you leading front lines there. Your missionary background, god has brought you and your wife to this. This is wonderful. So thanks so much. Appreciate you being on the podcast today.

Roy Gruber: 34:26

Thank you, JD. Glad to be connected with you and thanks for your help in what we're doing here at accelnetworkorg.

Alan Adler: 34:31

Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss any future episodes. See you next time with another leading conversation.