Announcement : 0:06

Welcome to the Leading Conversations podcast sponsored by the Excel Leadership Network. On each episode, jd Paring will have conversations with church planting pastors and leaders from around the country. You can learn more about how to connect with Excel at the end of this podcast. Let's join JD now and listen in on this leading conversation.

J.D. Pearring: 0:30

Well, welcome to another edition of the Leading Conversations podcast with Excel Leadership Network. Today we are excited to have the great John Kraft with us. John is the regional executive director for Rocky Mountain Church Network and John, thanks so much for being here today. Oh well, thanks for having me. I've been looking forward to this. Did I get your title right?

John Craft: 0:57

Yes, you did. I don't know about the great part, but all the rest of it was exactly right.

J.D. Pearring: 1:04

John's just an amazing bike rider. When was the last bike ride you went on? How long was it? Well, I taught a spin class this morning, so I taught a spin class at eight.

John Craft: 1:17

That was like 45 minutes. Saturday I went for a 50-mile bike ride and yeah, so I ride most days either inside or outside 50 miles, so how long does that take? That I did in two hours and 15 minutes.

J.D. Pearring: 1:36

Wow, that's incredible. So, man, that's crazy. Hey, tell us your story, tell us how you came to Christ.

John Craft: 1:55

Yeah, so I grew up going to church, but it was a like wildly not gospel preaching church, um, you know, very uh, theologically liberal, uh really did not teach the the gospel at all and so but we were super committed to it. You know, we were there every week. I'd sing in a choir, I was president of our youth group when I was in junior high, so really committed to it but knew really nothing about the gospel. So then my family, we actually moved to Egypt for a short time. My dad got a job there, so we lived in Egypt for a little under a year and then we came back to the States and we're trying to figure out where we're going to repatriate, which is kind of a tough process to go through. And in that time we ended up hanging out in Flagstaff, arizona, which is where my mom's family was my grandma, my aunt and uncle on my mom's side, and my uncle was the director of the Sunshine Rescue Mission in Flagstaff. So he's a Western grad, he. You know they have gospel chapels every night and as a as an eighth grade kid, it was an awesome place for me because I could walk into the walk in fridge and eat whatever I wanted. I mean it was, it was awesome. So I just hung out there during the day and went on food runs and helped out at the mission.

John Craft: 3:26

And then a group went camping and they invited me to go and so we were there in the woods outside of Flagstaff and we're having Bible studies, which I was used to because I was a church kid, you know I had favorite verses and scripture memorized and so we're doing Bible studies. And on the second night we were there, this family camped near us like campsite, right next to us, and they had a little little boy who wanted to come to our campfire and the leader of our, of our camping trip said well, if it's OK with your parents, you can come. And inexplicably those parents they must's okay with your parents, you can come. And inexplicably, those parents, they must be like the worst parents in the world because we are in the middle of the forest. They have no idea who we are. They're a little like seven year old boy came over to our campfire but since he was there, the guy who was giving a devotion that night laid out the gospel and he's like communicating it to this little boy because he thought I was a Christian because, you know, I grew up going to church. My uncle was his boss at the rescue mission and so he's talking to this boy about the gospel.

John Craft: 4:38

But I was the one who was listening and thought about it that night, all the next day, and then prayed to receive Christ.

John Craft: 4:49

And it was interesting, you know. Right after that I went to the mission just like normal and told people I prayed to receive Christ and everyone was super excited and giving me hugs. And then I went back to my grandma's house and told my mom and my mom said well, that's nice, but I don't think you really have to do that because I don't think God would ever send anyone to help and because that's what our church taught. And and so as as we kind of continue through the process of getting back into life in the United States, getting back into life in the United States, we ended up moving to Tucson and mom called around to try to figure out what church had the best program for my sister and I, and she decided it was First Baptist of Tucson, which is one of the iconic original conservative Baptist churches, and so the rest of my family made professions of faith there, and it really is what laid the foundation for me for the rest of my life.

J.D. Pearring: 5:53

That's amazing. What did your uncle think when you told him that you had come to Christ? He had just assumed you had already done that he had just assumed you had already done that.

John Craft: 6:04

Oh yeah, yeah, because you know he knew that we were super involved in church and he didn't know of our church.

John Craft: 6:12

It was kind of a not super well-known, but it was a fairly well-known church in Phoenix it was one of the churches that if you're in politics and you wanted to be seen going to church but didn't want any requirements put on you, that's where you would go. And uh, and so he knew we were, we were involved in church. Uh, he was surprised but he was super excited and uh, he's he still talks about how, you know, we came to faith and he had led the guy who led our mission, our camping trip, to faith and then George led me to faith and yeah, it's a cool journey.

J.D. Pearring: 6:50

Well, that's a great, great story. How did the call to ministry happen then?

John Craft: 6:56

So call to ministry happened. I was trying to figure out what I was going to do with my life as a team and decided that, like God had wired me to work with high school kids, and so my plan was to be a high school teacher. I love science, so I did all the prep work to go to the University of Arizona. I did all the prep work to go to the University of Arizona. I was living in Tucson and it was like, bit by bit, all of my plans fell apart and my parents were moving at the end of the summer after I graduated from high school, and so I was facing kind of the real possibility of not being able to start school that fall. Not being able to start school that fall. And so in that season I helped a friend from my youth group move from Tucson up to Southwestern College in Phoenix, which is now Arizona Christian University, and it's hard to describe, but it was like getting onto the campus. I had all this anxiety built up because I had no idea what my next step was going to be, and it was like I got on the campus and that feeling of anxiety, that tenseness was gone and so I looked into going there I had a quick conversation with someone who I had already known because she went with my youth group as a camp counselor that summer, who I had already known because she went with my youth group as a camp counselor that summer. I filled out an application for the school as a favor to her because she had convinced her boss that it would be a good recruitment opportunity. And it's embarrassing because I made like jokes on my application, you know, but I had an application on file.

John Craft: 8:40

Everything that had fallen apart trying to go to the University of Arizona fell right into place going to Southwestern. So I went home that night that was a Sunday night Got home at midnight, told my parents I was going to go to Southwestern College. That next morning I got up I talked to my youth pastor and her college pastor. My youth pastor thought it was the coolest thing he'd ever heard. The college pastor thought it was the dumbest thing he'd ever heard to make a decision that quick. And I liked what my high school pastor said more. So I listened to him and packed up my stuff and four o'clock that afternoon was at Southwestern and in talking to the advisor realized that the same kind of gifting and wiring that I thought would be good for working with high schoolers could be used in a church as opposed to being a chemistry teacher, and so I took all the youth ministry classes I could and dove into youth ministry a year after I graduated.

J.D. Pearring: 9:44

Was that in Phoenix? Were you a youth pastor there?

John Craft: 9:47

I know. So when I got married, my wife Lori grew up in Thermopolis, wyoming, little town in northwestern Wyoming, thermopolis, thermopolis yes.

John Craft: 10:01

Yeah, it's the home of the world's largest hot springs. That's where I got this name, okay, but her mom was battling cancer. We didn't want to be far away, so we ended up staying in Thermopolis. There after we got married and after about a year a pastor in Colorado actually contacted the school because they were looking for a youth pastor, and the youth ministry prof suggested me, and so that was actually our first ministry gig was in Montrose, colorado.

J.D. Pearring: 10:38

Montrose oh wow, Are you a skier then?

John Craft: 10:42

No, I mean I can ski but it's too expensive for me. I'm in ministry. How can I afford to pay for lift tickets? So I would usually ski once or twice a year. You know when I would take the youth group skiing and their budget would pay for it, but I haven't been skiing for a long time, so for Montrose.

J.D. Pearring: 11:04

then what happened?

John Craft: 11:06

So Montrose, that church kind of blew up like exploded in a bad way and we ended up leaving there because they could only afford to pay one pastor. And if you're going to pay one pastor it's probably not going to be the youth guy. And so we ended up taking a youth and young adult gig in Cheyenne, wyoming, because we had connection there with you know it was another Rocky Mountain Conservative Baptist Association church and we knew the pastor there from pastor's retreats and so we were in Cheyenne for five years and then we went to Phoenix, arizona, where I was a college pastor for eight years at Palmcroft Baptist.

J.D. Pearring: 11:55

Okay, and who's the pastor of Palmcroft?

John Craft: 11:59

So they just got a brand new pastor. His name is Robbie Lashua and that was a very cool thing. So I got to go for Robbie's installation because Robbie was in our college ministry and I mentored him and did ministry together with him and you know, he interned with me and so it was a huge blessing to go and just talk about Robbie and how excited we were for this step in their journey. Oh, that's wonderful.

J.D. Pearring: 12:26

Yeah, and then you stepped into a lead role there in Wyoming.

John Craft: 12:30

Yeah. So then we went to Sheridan Wyoming. We actually went there as a transitional pastor and you know the plan was to be there for 18 months, help them to get ready for the next senior pastor, and then it turned out that the next senior pastor was us, and so we stayed there for eight years and really a fabulous time in ministry.

J.D. Pearring: 12:53

Yeah, I heard it went really well there.

John Craft: 12:56

Oh well, good yeah, it did, it was an exciting time.

John Craft: 13:01

God did a lot of really, really cool things there. You know, had like a whole family come to faith, and to be able to baptize a whole family at once was just amazing. And but you know, we were there and it kind of felt like we never got over the fact that it was a temporary job, even though we were there for eight years, and so we ended up going from there to Redding, California. Then I pastored Redding Christian Fellowship there for five years, led through COVID, through some really tough times a big wildfire that destroyed 1100 homes in our town, Good ministry. It was a trying season of ministry and then I got the call to see if we'd be interested in taking this position.

J.D. Pearring: 13:51

Well, let me ask I got to ask about Reading what's it like being a pastor in Reading when you're not at Bethel?

John Craft: 13:57

Well, first of all, everyone always asks you that question and you know, obviously we operated in a couple of different lanes. You know we were not in the same. We were not trying to be Bethel Light or, you know, bethel 2.0. It was an interesting season of ministry to be there. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, tell us something good about Bethel. It was an interesting season of ministry to be there.

J.D. Pearring: 14:23

Yeah, for sure yeah.

John Craft: 14:26

Tell us something good about Bethel. So the thing that you need to know about Bethel and I'm a firm believer in what Andy Stanley said, that we need to be a student, not a critic and and because it's really easy to point out all the things we don't like, but if you go to a service at Bethel, it is jam packed, like standing room only with next generation, with young adults, and and I think a big reason for that is when you watch what they do on the platform they empower young leaders not to lead because they're going to be the leaders of the future, but they empower them to lead right now. And and the way that they do that it communicates something different and I think I think a lot of our churches you know, our churches that struggle with engaging with the next generation they need to take a cue from that.

John Craft: 15:35

The most influential worship leader in the world and he led one song during the whole worship set and it wasn't even a bet, it was a Chris Tomlin song. It wasn't even a Bethel song that he left, that he led. Every other song was led by a guy who was like 26 and um, watching Brian and his like his uh, just pride in in what this young guy was doing and then when they came off the platform with big hugs and just like really celebrating what had taken place. That is what's missing in a lot of churches that are trying to reach the next generation, and so if churches could pay attention to what Bethel's doing in that regard, they'd be a whole lot better off in reaching younger people for Christ.

J.D. Pearring: 16:29

Well, thanks for sharing that. That's really really good to hear. So you took the Rocky Mountain Church Network job. What is that?

John Craft: 16:38

Well, I am the executive director, the regional executive director. So we are one region out of eight of Venture Church Network, which was formerly Conservative Baptists of America. But, as our national president said, part of the reason we changed our name one is to look forward. Looking is to look forward because Conservative baptist was like who we were not 70 years ago. We were not liberal baptist, so we had the name conservative baptist, but we never, like, identified. This is where we're going, so venture is a forward-looking name. And secondly, like the conversation always turned to well, no, not that type of baptist. Well, no, not that type of conservative. You know, because the, you know, just simply put the word conservative. Now, in the 40s, when we were formed, people understood that even outside the church to mean theologically conservative. But now, if you hear the word conservative, you only, you run immediately to politics. And so we are.

John Craft: 17:38

We are one region of eight of Venture Church Network. We encompass Colorado, wyoming, montana and Utah. We have a couple of churches that are right across the border in a couple other states, and one in Kansas, one in Nebraska and my role is to help churches take bold next steps by strengthening and starting churches, and we strengthen churches by caring for pastors, by connecting congregations and coaching and consulting and then starting churches. We have a vision to plant seven churches by 2030. To plant seven churches by 2030. And, you know, by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit and the strength that I don't have, I'm hoping that we'll have two at least underway this year. So we're moving forward with some good things here.

J.D. Pearring: 18:35

It looks like that's happening. Good, how's the role been for you? It's completely different than pastoring a new pastor. How's the role been for you? It's completely different than pastoring and youth pastor. How is the role?

John Craft: 18:43

Yeah, it is entirely well, not entirely different, quite a bit different. It's been fabulous, like it's been the exact right fit for me. And it's tiring. You know, we travel, we're in a different church most weeks out of the month. We we try to schedule one Sunday a month to be here at our home church, cause if we don't schedule it in it gets filled up. So yesterday I was in Douglas, wyoming, which is it's only two and a half hours from our house. That's a that's a close commute for church for us. The weekend before we did a leadership retreat. That was in Basin Wyoming, which is a super cool place. Church there is man God's doing very cool things in the Bighorn Basin. But yeah, this is a seven and a half hour drive home so it gets tiring driving. But to be able to come alongside and encourage pastors and to work with leadership groups and help them see that there's something better for them than they're experiencing right now has been really energizing.

J.D. Pearring: 19:54

And how many miles a year are you putting on your car?

John Craft: 19:57

Oh, we're 35,000 a year. A year, that's not bad, yeah, it's not too bad, uh. But I've also started flying a little bit more, you know, because we have churches in the area and, uh, I think, especially in the winter, it's better to drive, or better to fly over there up to Cody, wyoming, or like, next two weekends from now I'll be in, uh uh, outside of Bozeman, wyoming. That's like a 15 hour drive from my house, and so I'm going to fly on that one.

John Craft: 20:33

Give us one what's one exciting story of what's happening in the, in the churches, oh, so for me that's easy and it is uh like I don't think the word revival is too strong uh to use for the bighorn basin. So that's kind of northwestern wyoming uh like uh cody towards us, um, and uh, small towns, rural, so basin where we were, uh, basin is uh so basin itself is like 1200 people. Uh, gray bowl, which is right next to it, is about 1600 people. So in the greater metro area you have like 2800 people. Um, um, church on Sunday is like 200 gathering for worship and uh like jam-packed with kids and young families. Um, doing a really great job reaching the next generation and seeing a lot of LDS families start to leave the Mormon church and connect with with first Baptist and basin Powell Wyoming, which is like an hour and a half North of there. You know Powell's a town of like 6,000. Regular Sunday at Powell Now it's Grace Point church. It's like 350 people and and again people come to Christ. It's a. It's Grace Point Church. It's like 350 people and again, people coming to Christ. It's a heavily Mormon area.

John Craft: 22:09

People leaving the LDS church, our church in Riverton. They walked through a really wonky situation but have come out of it and now are really engaging with young families and seeing people come to Christ and get baptized. It's really an exciting season of ministry. And then even Douglas so Douglas Wyoming, where we were yesterday, isn't in the basin, but you know, typical Sunday at First Baptist there is like 250, 300 people and Douglas is a town of 4,000. So we've got several churches that are reaching like 10% of their community right there and God's really using them to transform lives and eternities. It's a very cool season for our Wyoming churches. Lots of other things going on in our other churches Our Salt Lake churches are seeing growth, seeing people leave the LDS church. Our Denver area churches some of them are really thriving and starting to grow and reach new people. So there's some really great things taking place.

J.D. Pearring: 23:16

Well, good, good, good. Hey, give us a leadership tip. Been in ministry for a while, so what's your tip for leaders?

John Craft: 23:29

Well, there's two that kind of go together and one of those is to remember that ministry takes effort, takes effort. You know, there there was a quote it was in, it was a preface, like the intro to a chapter in Oswald Sanders spiritual leadership, you know, really iconic, great, classic leadership book, and I keep looking for it and I can't. I can't pin down this quote. But someone said the world is run by tired men, and there is a sense in which we need to realize that ministry takes effort and there are times where we will be tired because we've taken that, we've expended that energy to do ministry. But on the flip side of that is to remember that, whether it's on a calendar year or on a week-to-week basis, we have rhythms and we really need to understand that rhythm and understand that while there are times where we're pushing, there are times where we need to take a step back. And so, lori and I, one thing that we did for my entire ministry journey I took Mondays off and it was this nice rhythm, because you kind of work and work and hit the big thing of the week, which was Sunday morning, and then you could decompress on Monday and then kind of start it over again.

John Craft: 25:06

Well then we went to Reading and I had Friday off and the problem was I didn't have that. It was like this crescendo to Sunday and then it just started right up, you know, right away. Uh, so much so that when I first got there, staff meeting was at nine o'clock on Monday morning and I changed that. I was like guys, I need like a moment to catch my breath at least. And so we changed that.

John Craft: 25:33

One thing Lori and I did was we created a date night on Thursday night, and it was like a marker like this is the end of the work week. Now I know I still had things that needed to get done and get set for Sunday, but there was something really important about that rhythm of saying here's the end of the work week, I'm going to take tomorrow off and then we'll start ramping some things up on Saturday and to do that. So you know, I think understanding the balance of the energy that it takes to do ministry and then having a healthy rhythm in expending that energy, I think just will add to longevity in leadership.

J.D. Pearring: 26:18

I think that's a really good word. Can I ask so, now that you're in a different type it's not like a regular, regular week a week what is your rhythm of a day off now?

John Craft: 26:29

so this gets a little trickier because it is.

John Craft: 26:32

It is much more scattered, you know, when I'm I, because I don't have a staff, it's, you know, it's just me in the office and uh, and so, uh, I've actually been working with my board about that to try to get that figured out a little bit better. Uh, I do have leeway to take a day off. Um, you know, I'll take this week, I'll probably take like a couple of half days off. Uh, just because of the way my schedule is laid out, because we were gone all weekend, um, but we still have our date night on Thursday night, just because of the way my schedule's laid out, because we were gone all weekend, but we still have our date night on Thursday night. And we do that just to again, just to create that kind of marker, to say you know, here's the end of something, now we can start getting ready for the weekend. But it has been a little trickier because it is a little more fluid than being in a church staff and having that regular rhythm that happens week in and week out.

J.D. Pearring: 27:40

I completely agree with you on that aspect. Moving into the secondary or second level or whatever you want to call it not quite front lines ministry Getting a day off when you're traveling a lot is hard. So this year I tried something I started in the fall I'm scheduling two days off every week to get one, yeah yeah. And my wife's like, well, who's the culprit that keeps cringing on your day off? I say it's this guy named JD. He just keeps messing it up. But that's been really helpful and I'm working with a coach and a coaching cohort on that sort of stuff and even working to the point where, okay, if you've got to do something on your day off, you can put a boundary on that. That. Okay, I'm gonna work four hours or six hours or whatever. So it's not like, okay, here's another. But I really appreciate the whole rhythm thing because, yes, ministry is tiring, it's just constant. But having those rhythms, so that's great.

J.D. Pearring: 28:53

Well, john, I just want to say I really appreciate you, appreciate working with you. You are an energetic leader. You've got this really good vision for what you want to see happen in Rocky Mountain area. Good stuff happening. It's been exciting for me to see happen in Rocky Mountain area Good stuff happening. It's been exciting for me to jump back into Rocky Mountains. We loved our time in Denver and Colorado Springs. Well, I would say I liked it. My wife just loved it so much. But I'm glad to be in Northern California where the weather's a little bit more stable. Yes, it is, but hey, thanks for being on with us, thanks for sharing your story and thanks for what you're doing. Keep up the good work.

John Craft: 29:37

Well, thank you, jd, and it is super good to have you join us, and I'm just looking forward to seeing what God does through our partnership.

Announcement : 29:46

Thanks for joining the Leading Conversations podcast. We hope that you found it both helpful and encouraging. At Excel Leadership Network, our focus is on the church planter rather than the church. If you'd like to find out more about us, visit our webpage at excelnetworkorg. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss any future episodes. See you next time with another leading conversation.