Announcer : 0:06

Welcome to the Leading Conversations podcast sponsored by the Excel Leadership Network. On each episode, jd Paring will have conversations with church planting pastors and leaders from around the country. You can learn more about how to connect with Excel at the end of this podcast. Let's join JD now and listen in on this leading conversation.

J.D. Pearring: 0:29

Well, welcome to yet another edition of Leading Conversations with Excel Leadership Network. Today we are thrilled to have Rick McKinley. I hear he is kind of a big deal, and Rick is here from Portland, Oregon. Is it raining in Portland at the time?

Rick McKinley: 0:48

No, it is 85 degrees here. It's insane.

J.D. Pearring: 0:53

That's wonderful Now are you from Sacramento.

Rick McKinley: 0:58

Yeah, I grew up in the Bay Area in Concord and then we moved to Citrus Heights outside of Sacramento when I was in highord and then we moved to Citrus Heights outside of Sac when I was in high school, my sophomore year, and then, yeah, I went up to go to Chico State because it was the number one party school that year. It still might be, yeah, it might be, I don't know. And then I started having some kind of spiritual awakening. You know, it's very kind of new agey in the 80s, late 80s, and I mean I couldn't, I couldn't meditate, I was just a dumb jock, I couldn't get into that. So I dropped out and then kind of came home and kept being kind of wild and partying and then I walked into a church on Palm Sunday.

J.D. Pearring: 1:57

Wow, so that's your story. So I have a similar story. When I grew up in LA, we moved to the Bay Area, to Walnut Creek, so I went to high school in Concord De La Salle over there oh wow. But then my senior year we moved over here into the Sacramento area and I was going to go to Berkeley. But I decided my dad said, yeah, you're paying for it. So I went to UCLA. But yeah, talk about that. You didn't grow up in a Christian home.

Rick McKinley: 2:32

No, we never went to church. That I that I remember. So I I literally had no like as much of a blank slate, I think, as you could have going into a church setting. That was me and I was drinking pretty hard and partying and had started blacking out and I was like, man, I need some help. And so I was going to go to AA or church, and church seemed easier. So I went to the closest church to my house and it was Palm Sunday. I didn't know what that was. I literally thought they were going to read my palm, which sounds so dumb now, but I know, I mean that makes a lot of branches didn't mean anything to me, you know.

Rick McKinley: 3:31

So I just listened. And then they had several things during the week and I just came, kept coming back, and I a guy got a hold of me and somewhere in that week and I was like, yeah, I'm doing this now, whatever this is like. And um, I remember when I went to church my dad was like, if you go to church, those people come to the house. And I was like, how would you know? You know what I mean? You've never, we never went to church. And two weeks later no kidding this the door knocks and there's these two dudes in suits outside my house and I'm like, huh, he knew I think my dad was like smoking pot in the other room. So it was a, it was an odd conversation, but they made me pray a prayer. So I was official, I guess, at that point.

J.D. Pearring: 4:27

So that's how you officially turned to Christ.

Rick McKinley: 4:31

Yeah, and I mean it was just. It was a pretty radical For me. You know, I had, I had done everything and I had 11 jobs the year before, Like I just couldn't get traction. I never got fired. I just was like, oh, there's something better and there's something. There was probably a young entrepreneur in there that didn't know what he was doing, but there was just a sense that like man, this is god's love was super palpable and and things were connecting. I understood jesus. I didn't understand church. Like that was so confusing to me and I mean I got along with so many different groups like in high school and college the jocks, the stoners, the artists, the whatever and I I could not figure out Christians to save my life.

Rick McKinley: 5:29

And looking back, I realize what was your sport, by the way Football, and wrestling and baseball.

J.D. Pearring: 5:38

And what was your position in football?

Rick McKinley: 5:41

I mean offensive line. Okay.

J.D. Pearring: 5:46

But the reason I bring that up is that I was just talking with a couple college church planters on our network who were college offensive linemen in the SEC and they just said that the offensive line room is like the closest one because you gotta be humble and offensive line guys. They were the ones who loved football as far as I was. I wanted to stay out of there, but that's how you learn how to get along with everybody right, You're just you're the glue that holds the whole team together.

Rick McKinley: 6:19

Oh yeah, and you know they never let you touch the ball. It's, you know you, just it's let you touch the ball. It's, you know you, just it's. It's very much like church planting. It's very thankless, Unless you're a left tackle, because, after you know, Joe Theismann went down, left tackles became the second highest paid player on the team. I hear so Well, I should have. I should have gotten taller, I might have been able to pull that off.

J.D. Pearring: 6:49

But so you're.

Rick McKinley: 6:49

You're in church and you're starting to understand jesus, but not quite getting church no, and you know what, as I look back on it you knowing the church a little better I have like compassion on these college singles ministry guys. I mean, their whole life was spent in church, so it all made sense to them. I couldn't figure out why we're doing group singing at every event, like I'd never sang with a group of people in my entire life. And now I can't go to a small group, a Bible study. We're all going to sing and I was trying to figure out what's with the singing, what's with the group singing. So, yeah, I figured out it was worship and it kind of caught on. But they're singing the goofy songs and people are dancing around giving each other high fives. I'm just like get me out of here well, you must have hung with it I did.

Rick McKinley: 7:57

I mean for me it's funny because people like churches are such a huge obstacle for people and I get that. I just have had this encounter with God that was like man, I'm, I'm in, so I can't I can't shake church. I'll try to figure it out. Um, I did that for 10 years. I worked at the Presbyterian church and a Baptist church and a Willow Creek wannabe church and you know, just going like I'm trying to adapt, like I realized the problem's me. So I will try to figure out how to navigate this world. And when my kids turned seven, that's when I was like man, my I would never have made it in these churches growing up and I want my kids to see like what I experienced, which was so real and transcendent and powerful and raw, but they weren't going to get that, have the best shot at trusting and seeing the real Jesus, you know, in action.

J.D. Pearring: 9:19

Wow, that's a great, great story. Now, just to back up a little bit two guys show up in suits at your door and then you go into ministry. How did that happen? Was there a call? It's a natural thing.

Rick McKinley: 9:37

Yeah, I mean I was 19, so I didn't really know. I didn't have much of a direction in terms of a vocation. I did sense like I wanted't have much of a direction in terms of a vocation. I did sense like I wanted to serve Jesus. I didn't know what that was. I remember reading Acts 20, kind of 22 through 24 there where he's like I'm going to Jerusalem to die, the Holy Spirit's warning me that I'm going to be in prison, but my life's not worth anything unless I finish the race and testify of the gospel of God's grace, you know, complete the task. And that resonated like that's what I wanted to be about.

Rick McKinley: 10:15

And I didn't know Bible schools or colleges existed, but the youth pastor had gone to Multnomah up in Portland. Did, but the youth pastor had gone to Multnomah up in Portland. And so nine months after I came to faith I was at Multnomah trying to figure out that world. That was fast, yeah, too fast for them, too fast for me probably. I was telling dirty jokes, the profs thinking they were clean and I could only. The only way I can discern it was dirty was the look on everybody's face after I told the joke. And it was funny because years later I was. I was leading the demon program, starting a demon program at Multnomah with some of those profs from way back in the day.

J.D. Pearring: 11:07

Was that shocking to them?

Rick McKinley: 11:10

I don't think so, you know because I'd planted and they kind of had watched me grow up in faith. But yeah, they would not have placed that bet when I was at school, I'm pretty sure bet when I was at school.

J.D. Pearring: 11:26

I'm pretty sure no-transcript.

Rick McKinley: 11:34

So when I was 30, my dad wanted me to come back to California and plant or start a business with him and we kind of were planning on doing that. I had gotten connected with David Nicholas in Boca Raton and later him, me and Mark Driscoll started Acts 29. Um so, so I had an opportunity from David to that he would fund me for like a year and a half and that was on the table. And we came to Portland to make sure we shouldn't plant and I was like at Starbucks reading the gospel of John. And you know it's the, the wedding feast at Cana, and Jesus changes water to wine.

Rick McKinley: 12:26

I looked over in the margins and you know those, those six vats were 180 gallons of wine and I was like, man, that is, that seems excessive, like if I was at a party and they ran out of beer and I was like, don't worry, I have 180 gallons in my truck, you know. And then the next scene he's turned over the temple and the question that that God put in my head, I guess, was would you be comfortable hanging out with Jesus or would you be making excuses Like, hey, it's his first miracle, sorry, he made so much alcohol, and you know he gets angry sometimes. Like realizing that just after 10 years in the church I was all of a sudden uncomfortable, like enough of that culture, of separatist culture had gotten into me that I was like man, I would be uncomfortable around the Jesus of the Gospels and just sensed an invitation to like would you be this radical to reach people I love? And I said you should tell my wife that we're not going to go to California.

J.D. Pearring: 13:40

And he did so we went home and resigned and started a MAGA Wow.

Rick McKinley: 13:54

They talk about the early days of the church, the church plant. Yeah, so you know, we had been in Portland when we were in school and we had been at a church that was about four hours east in this little rural town of, I mean, the smallest place I've lived, by a million people. But the ministry I led there had a bunch of kids that had left to go to college in Portland and they, you know, we had done some significant kind of ministry they, there was a core team of college kids that were like, yeah, we should, we should totally plant in church. That makes sense and had enough faith and naivete to do it. And so we started with like 15 people in our living room and they were, you know, 18 to 20 year olds. I think we had two couples that were over 30 and that was the core team. We started to turn into kind of a singles group with a bunch of people who love to read about mission and talk about mission and and yet not do mission.

Rick McKinley: 15:01

And I was kind of true of me at the time and I I realized the only way to like create an actual want to I mean we, we always I think how to is the is question of apathy that the church loves to stay in. You know, jesus is like love your neighbor. And we're like how do you love your neighbor? I mean this is crazy. I need to take a class, I need to go to seminary One day I'll be able to and he's like hear and obey, that's all I want you to do. And so, just being honest with God, that man, we don't want to love the people you sent us your love. So I remember I thought, well, the only way I know how to do that is we have to get before God and just be honest with God. So I announced, like on Sunday during a core group meeting we're going to meet on Wednesday night and repent and just try to get God to change our heart. I want to recommend like that's the greatest way to start your church.

J.D. Pearring: 16:02

That's usually not one of the top strategies for launching a church. I have a repentance service on Wednesday night.

Rick McKinley: 16:11

But the thing that was cool is okay. On my side Jesus did say repent the kingdom. Know, that's kind of how he said to kick it off. So I had that going for me.

Rick McKinley: 16:25

But the thing that was beautiful about it and like terrifying is how honest the kids were, like they're like god, I don't believe in you, I don't think and god, I hate my neighbors. And I just drove home like, wow, I think I just tanked the whole project. But after about nine months they it's. I always liken church planning to like growing, growing, uh, you know flowers or vegetables, and you plant the seed in the ground and the seed has to die and the first nine months I'm just yelling at dirt, like please grow something, come up, dear god. And it eventually it did. Like hearts started to change and that little core group of 15 people started doing ministry that they kind of invented in Portland, just reaching Portlanders who wouldn't show up in church Ministries.

Rick McKinley: 17:26

That went on for like a decade plus. You know, guy takes his camp stove and he's on sixth and pine and there's no services for homeless people on saturdays and you know kind of that afternoon of saturday and so he starts three o'clock, people, he's cooking who knows what on his camp stove and six guys show up and then seven and like within six months there's a hundred homeless people showing up and building relationships with Joe and this team of kids. It turns out it's illegal. You need a food handler's permit. So we got Joe a food handler's permit, so lots of stuff like that, where they were young and they weren't old enough to know we shouldn't like obey Jesus in these ways. So it was in some ways. I don't think I could have planted a MAGA with anybody but that group of kids yeah, wow then.

J.D. Pearring: 18:34

Uh, obviously the church grew. Uh, you weren't meeting on the street, so where were you meeting? How was that going?

Rick McKinley: 18:42

yeah, I mean, we met, um, we met in this little church, uh, this little chapel at warner pacific, and you know, we during that core phase. So we start actually trying to gather core in January of 2000. By the time we get to October we have about 50 people and we officially launch that was 25 years ago this October, and by January we're kind of out of money. And so Jeff Marsh and Beth Livingston this two people that like gave their lives away to start a Mago have this like really come to Jesus moment, like man is this, this isn't going to fund us, so we either get jobs or shut it down. It was such a purifying moment as I look back on it, because we both felt the conviction like no, we're, we're supposed to do this.

Rick McKinley: 19:41

You know, he started painting houses, I was consulting and doing whatever I could do, and then in that year everything kind of started to take off. Started to take off. Uh, we went from like 50 to 250, 250 to four, and those first seven or eight years it just grew quite fast. For I think back then, you know, I remember rick warren saying like it took him 15 years to get to 1500 or something, and it's interesting because he was like you guys are growing much faster than we did, but you look at the young planners now and they're some of them are getting to a thousand within a couple of years. So the speed at which we can gather a crowd might accelerate, but the time it takes to build a church, I don't think has ever changed. It's a slow process, you know.

J.D. Pearring: 20:43

Yeah, and then there is a difference between the crowd and the congregation, or the core, as Rick Warren would say, yeah, hey, talk about the early days of Acts 29,.

Rick McKinley: 20:55

Then hey, talk about the early days of Acts 29, then yeah, so David Nicholas, he was this 70-year-old guy that planted a Spanish river in Boca Raton. They planted over 300 churches in his lifetime there of 30 years and had been given money, you know, to a lot of pca churches over a lot of that time because he was a pca plant and got frustrated that they would take money, start, you know, a reformed church somewhere in the country and not do evangelism, not share their faith. And David was a huge evangelist and he just got tired of seeing these guys put up their reformed witness flag somewhere in the country and have 50 people 20 years later. You know people 20 years later, you know. So I think he met driscoll and then me and I was sort of david's first non-pca plant and it's, it's fascinating, the first gathering of when we were forming x29. It was kind of david's brainchild was this super diverse group of people it was, I mean, shane clayborne was there and doug paget and driscoll like it's just super eclectic and I'm thinking, man, this is going to be like a new reformation.

Rick McKinley: 22:28

You know, in 2000 and then I think year two, the um five pointpoint Calvinist doctrinal statement came out and that just blew up the whole thing, but I stayed with it. Part of the commitment was David would fund you X amount and then you would kick back 10% in the church planning until that got paid off or but hopefully it was forever. And you know the the beautiful thing is I think he gave us eighty thousand dollars and over the years imago, like we, planted 17 churches and like that money for two years multiplied, you know, exponentially with the money that Imago put towards church planning. So I could kind of see the genius of it and I was like this is, this is important. I want to stick around for this.

J.D. Pearring: 23:31

Oh, good, good. Hey, I know it's a podcast and on podcasts you're not allowed to do this, but can you say something good about Mark Driscoll? You know when we Go ahead.

Rick McKinley: 23:48

No, you go ahead.

J.D. Pearring: 23:49

I was just going to say. I asked Mark when he was planting in Arizona. Somebody introduced me and I said well, what do you need? Can we help you? What's your biggest? He said I just need some friends. So I've tried to be a friend, but that's good man and he is, you know, the Mark I know is a good guy. So that's good.

Rick McKinley: 24:14

Say something good if you can you know, in those early days Mark and I were pretty close and I mean he was one of the smartest dudes I think I met, you know, and I mean we definitely. I left in 2004 and my prayer for him was just that he'd find someone to submit to during that whole thing. But after 2004 I kind of I wasn't part of it anymore at that point, so I haven't stayed in touch with him so I couldn't tell you what he's up to today okay, okay, um, yeah, you planted 17 churches.

J.D. Pearring: 25:03

How did that happen? That's like, that's not how we do it in america. We plan our own deal. We yeah, it's all about us.

Rick McKinley: 25:13

you know, I mean they. I think, having david sort of put that into the dna and seeing the wisdom of it, um, it, it caught on for us. You know, we we planted in a variety of ways, from funding to funding and coaching to funding, coaching, sending and I think one of the some of the funnest ones were the ones where it was the full package right, we had Kyle Costello take 40 people from Imago in Portland to go plant Missio in Salt Lake City and it wasn't just college kids, it was like families quitting jobs and moving and he took staff. He's quitting jobs and moving and and he took staff and, um, we were like anyone you can pull, you can take, and so two years into him kind of being embedded, and it was like wow, they're, they're following him, you know, and he's since moved to socal, to plant, but but, um, heather Thomas is still leading that church over there, so it's just part of our, it was part of our DNA for a long time.

Rick McKinley: 26:30

I think it still is post COVID. I think they're trying to figure it out, but, um, yeah, yeah, I mean it. It created so much energy in the church. You know, we don't we multiply, we don't divide, and having church planners and encouraging people to go and, you know, consider like, hey, maybe you've been a leader here, but there's another level of kind of invitation that Jesus is inviting you to to actually be part of starting a church. And I mean, for some of these people it was maybe the first time they really did anything in a church and it was to help plant one, which I love. That you know.

J.D. Pearring: 27:17

So what are you doing now?

Rick McKinley: 27:21

Yeah, now I. So I transitioned out of the lead role at Imago. We have two congregations locally Mike Dean leads Eastside and Chris and I lead Central City. So I kind of coach them, I preach for them, I work with Pastors PDX in Portland. For them, I work with Pastors PDX in Portland.

Rick McKinley: 27:43

We've been blessed by having a lot of unity in the Church of Portland serving together, working together, being in a really unchurched environment I think knocks some of the edges off our insecurities. We really need each other. So I get to kind of steward that a little bit and keep investing and keeping the pastors connected. And then I lead cohorts of a lot of young pastors in Portland. So there's been kind of a major transition of new pastors. A lot of 30-something pastors are taking their first role in Portland and so I'm loving that. They're just such a great group of men who want to finish well, women that want to finish well, and that's really my heart is to go. You need to have a spiritual life that is empowering you to lead with gospel integrity, and those two things really go together if you're gonna kind of be that, that self-defined leader, that jesus defined leader with a non-anxious presence that can call people to the hard things that Jesus is inviting us to walk into. You know.

J.D. Pearring: 29:08

And so how often are you preaching then?

Rick McKinley: 29:11

I preach about six times at each congregation and then I've gotten to preach more around the city, which is super fun to see what God's doing in these other churches and works. So I could be preaching more than I was at a MAGA. So I'm sort of trying to dial it down a little bit, but it's really fun. I'm enjoying it.

J.D. Pearring: 29:38

Good. Now I have heard from a couple other folks about the PDX Portland deal, the pastors there. How did that happen where they just started to come together? You mentioned it's an unchurched area, so there's kind of a need, but how did all that happen?

Rick McKinley: 29:57

Well, you know, and so we had been working really hard to serve the city and, you know, be the kind of church that the city would be bummed if we left. You know, because we were just adding value and participating. And then built a relationship with Kevin and Luis Palau and in 08, there was this idea, the mayor. We went to the mayor and we said what are the top three needs of Portland? One was a big, one was the graduation rate, and we were like how could we work together to kind of make that mission the mission of the churches? And so local schools were a natural connection where, if every local school connects with the local church, like you have access to pretty much everybody in your community. And so it was a win for the specific church's mission. That was kind of one of the keys. It can't just be this big. You know, we did all this and I had to do it and go do my mission. We had to make sure this was like this is mission critical for you as a local church, but if we all do it collectively it has like that exponential power to it.

Rick McKinley: 31:17

And Luis did kind of a rally downtown and we did this day of service, this city of service thing.

Rick McKinley: 31:29

I think there were 26,000 volunteers, many mobilized through the churches, and so you know, sam Adams, who was the mayor at the time, was like we got to do this every year and announced it from the stage and we're like, oh okay.

Rick McKinley: 31:43

But it really was a very unlikely positive relationship that we had with Sam and his office and the churches collectively working together. That's had a varied, you know, different mayors come in and there's different levels of interest to kind of partner with us. But we've worked with city commissioners and other groups and so that just kind of kicked off. Look, we want it to be centered around Jesus, we want it to be city focused, but we want it to be church driven and good for your mission. And so there were like 200 some school partnerships that came out of that process and so those it really was mission serving together created those relationships and then kind of back-blowing the personal connections like pastor groups praying for each other, that sort of thing, and so that's gone for I don't know whatever 08 is till now and it's continued, which has been really beautiful.

J.D. Pearring: 32:59

That's wonderful. Tell me something good about Portland.

Rick McKinley: 33:05

We hear all stuff on the news. Oh yeah, I mean, portland's a beautiful city. I think the the ethos of you know, portlandia is such a a myth. Right like you have, I think every city is part promise, part myth and part truth. The myth is your progressive independence will make you completely happy and that kind of came home to roost with legalization of all drugs and that sort of thing and that kind of backfired on them drugs and that sort of thing and that kind of backfired on them. And I think the myth of Portland is what creates Portlandia are these poor people that live on the outside of the city. And so what I'm hopeful about the city is there is a sense that people love it and that something has shifted post-COVID. Where you see people going. How are we going to work together to bring back Portland and what it was? And there's real collaboration and value to that. And so, yeah, I think it's a great city. I can't imagine leading anywhere else. I think I was made for a very non-churched environment.

J.D. Pearring: 34:28

Well, it's wonderful that you're there. This is a question I get asked a lot how do you find your church planters? How are you raising up leaders?

Rick McKinley: 34:41

Yeah, I'm trying to think there's been so many different ways. I don't feel like we did any of the churches the same way. You know, sometimes they come to us and they embed and kind of go through a process. We made a ton of mistakes at the beginning where we would sort of embed, then assess and you know, you're two years down the road with a guy that's been embedded and he gets assessed and it's like this guy shouldn't be a church planner and she's like, oh my gosh, so a lot of learning it the hard way.

Rick McKinley: 35:19

And there is something when you're a church planning church that I do think people you know, church planners, hear about you and so some of it's come that way.

Rick McKinley: 35:30

Some of it we've been able to raise up but you know very few. Even if you are a developmental culture, that means you're still going to have a very small percentage of people that you develop that are going to be like church planner leaders versus you know, associates or execs or and so we've just tried to keep that developmental culture going and it's attracted some church planners from the outside. If we find a guy that moves into town to plant from Indiana, we try our best to like scoop them up and go before you go, before you go, kill yourself like sit with us for a year, learn some things about the city. So some of it's been that way because we, you know they actually were assessed and good, but they culturally did not understand the lay of the land. So I don't know if we've ever done it the same way twice. I wish I had a perfect answer for that. I think we're all scrambling to figure that one out.

J.D. Pearring: 36:35

One of my theories is that apostolic people such as yourself never really lack for having leaders around them. And I look at the book of acts and I get asked this all the time hey, how do you guys find your leaders? It's like, well, we're a network mostly of apostolic, entrepreneurial type people, and entrepreneurial, apostolic people just kind of attract leaders. Um, others find them, and so, hey, let's release the apostolic people to have some time to find and develop leaders and also the encouragers you know there's, there's the, the pa, who attracted folks, and then there's the Barnabas type who, hey, you can do this, you know.

Rick McKinley: 37:29

Absolutely. I think the biggest, you know, the biggest obstacle for a lot of those churches is you want a church planter but you don't want to release them. You want to define what they them, you want to define what they plant, you want to set all the parameters and you don't really. And if you have a church planter, that's not going to go well right, because they need to go plant what they're called the plan, how they see it, so how you know, learning that dance of like we're going to fund you, we're going to equip you, but we're going to release you, like literally release you.

Rick McKinley: 38:07

There's something that happens in the mind of pastors once the church kind of grows and they have their budget, that it all belongs to them and it's theirs to give away. And I'm like man, we need to, we need to act like none of this belongs to us. And that's what was so great about tithing. You know when, when your church budgets a hundred grand and you're giving away 10 grand, that feels like a lot. But when it's 3 million and you're giving away 300,000, that feels like a lot, lot, and you know it starts to get easier to decrease those numbers which I mean we're guilty of in certain years. I just think that that attitude of like let them go, trust them, give them all the resource and support you can, and they're going to make mistakes and they're not going to plant your church, and that's okay.

Rick McKinley: 39:09

We tried to do like congregation, multi-congregational, and it it worked for like the first year to kind of build a core group, and then it became a hindrance to have like the Imago name, and so we just were like great rename it. Take it Like whatever is going to help you plant the church that God is inviting you to plant. We're all in, and maybe it's messier and doesn't have that kind of organizational perfection to it that a lot of multi-site stuff does, but I just think it's more beautiful.

J.D. Pearring: 39:54

I agree with you and I really appreciate your attitude of release them. Let them go. Well, hey, you've given us a few already, but end with what's a leadership tip you have for leaders or church planters Leadership tip yeah, I think two off the top of my head that continue to kind of rock me.

Rick McKinley: 40:18

Um, the first is God called you to love you, not use you. And if you, if you're super uncomfortable with being loved by God, it's going to show up in everything you do. And that has been kind of a 30-year journey for me to get comfortable. I was great with God using me, like I should pay you back for everything you did for me, but loving me unconditionally, unmerited, just because I'm your son. That felt uncomfortable. But I think it showed in those early years of the church, you know, and our discipleship, our preaching, how I treated people. So get comfortable with being the beloved. Uh, I think it'll help you finish well, because someday you're gonna have to give it all away. You know you're gonna have to step down, you're gonna have to let go and, man, most guys don't. Quite honestly, you know we're we want, we're gonna die with our boots on. Well, that might be great for you but it's not great. Like most of the congregation isn't excited about that prospect and then the the other one.

J.D. Pearring: 41:35

I would say the other one.

Rick McKinley: 41:38

I think if you know, if 10 percent or less of the people are pissed at you, don't quit doing what you're doing. Like if 12 people are mad at you and you have a church of 100 200 people, keep going Like it's fine. I think it's the you know, the loudest voice, the loudest critic can really sideline a leader off of his mission or vision. And that 90% like, yeah, if half your church is upset, then you might want to listen to God. Did you hear that? Right, and maybe you did and you need to do it. But that 90 10 thing, I heard it somewhere and it's like man, that is so brilliant because, yeah, there you might get complaints after you did x, y and z, but if it's like, well, yeah, there were six people that were upset out of 200 people, like you're not even close to 90, you're fine, keep going. You know that 10. So I think I think that's um. Be free to keep bleeding until you hit that, that number and you have the, you have the treasure.

J.D. Pearring: 42:50

Keep and count. You know you're at 8.7%.

Rick McKinley: 42:53

I mean no. The elders will definitely keep you aware of what percentage you're at.

J.D. Pearring: 43:02

It's time to get that resume out, because we've been running in the red, because you're at 15% for a while We've been at 25% for three months.

Rick McKinley: 43:14

Yeah, I think I did that a couple times too.

J.D. Pearring: 43:20

Well, those are both really brilliant tips. I appreciate that. And the 90-10, I have not heard that before and it's usually just two people who are really loud.

Rick McKinley: 43:34

Yeah, but, man, they can discourage a leader to want to like quit, you know.

J.D. Pearring: 43:43

Tell me about it. Yes, but you just encouraged me, because I'm just doing the numbers here and with my network I think I'm only running at about 7% who want to kill me.

Rick McKinley: 43:55

Yeah, you're great, I'm good, I got a little at about 7% who want to kill me.

J.D. Pearring: 43:57

Yeah, you're great, I got a little. I got a little cushion.

Rick McKinley: 43:58

You got a little more to go.

J.D. Pearring: 44:00

Turn it up. Hey, thanks so much for just telling your story, thanks for what you're doing, thanks for your your major impact in the kingdom so far and we're looking forward to even more of that in the future.

Rick McKinley: 44:15

Thanks, man, it's great being with you.

Announcer : 45:07

Thanks for joining the Leading Conversations podcast. We hope that you found it both helpful and encouraging. At Excel Leadership Network, our focus is on the church planter rather than the church. If you'd like to find out more about us, visit our webpage at excelnetwork. org. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss any future episodes. See you next time with another leading conversation.