Leading Conversations
Conversations between J.D. Pearring, Director of Excel Leadership Network, and church planting leaders, innovators, and coaches from around the country.
Leading Conversations
Conversation with Jon Groves
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What happens when rigid religious rules collide with authentic faith? Jon Groves takes us on a remarkable journey from his beginnings as a fourth-generation preacher's kid to finding freedom beyond the confines of legalism.
At just eight years old, Jon delivered his first sermon standing on a stepping stool behind the pulpit. Growing up in an environment where shorts were forbidden, movies were sinful, and bacon was off-limits, he eventually found himself excommunicated from both family and church for daring to read from a non-King James Bible and incorporating contemporary worship music.
Through counseling and mentorship, Jon discovered a path forward that honored Scripture while embracing grace. His church planting journey—first without network support or significant funding, and now in Orlando, Florida's fourth most unchurched metropolitan area—reveals the power of putting relationship before religion.
Whether you're a seasoned ministry leader or someone searching for authentic faith beyond the boundaries of tradition, this conversation will challenge and inspire you to keep moving forward in your own journey.
We want to help you find your next steps in ministry.
Connect here with EXCEL.
Welcome to Leading Conversations
AnnouncerWelcome to the Leading Conversations podcast sponsored by the Excel Leadership Network . On each episode , jd Paring will have conversations with church planting pastors and leaders from around the country . You can learn more about how to connect with Excel at the end of this podcast . Let's join JD now and listen in on this leading conversation .
J.D. PearringWelcome to another edition of Leading Conversations with the Accel Leadership Network . Today we are very happy to have with us the great Jon Groves from Florida , from Orlando . Jon , thanks for being here .
Jon GrovesWell , thanks for having me . You missed the great Jon Groves . I'll just be the regular one , I'm just the normal one , the regular Jon Groves .
J.D. PearringSo you're in Orlando . When was the last time you were at Disney World ?
Jon GrovesOh , probably two days ago Really , we had a dear friend who got us some season passes for our family and it has been some of the most fun to drive down there . It's about a 30 minute drive . Go on date nights , walk around , get your exercise in , maybe ride a ride If the wait time is below 15 minutes , and then peace out . It's been the most fun thing .
J.D. PearringWell , that's fantastic , that's wonderful , Um for for you Disney folks . So I grew up down the street from Disneyland and we used to have people come from all over the country , come stay with us , and they would go . And , uh , I rarely got to go . My sister always got to go . I didn't get to go .
Jon GrovesYou know people never wanted to visit me in Nashville , which I thought was a pretty cool city , but people I haven't heard from in years are reaching out like hey , man , you got a spare bedroom at your place . I'm thinking about coming down to visit you . Quote unquote . They're coming to see Mickey , not me .
J.D. PearringOkay , well , good Well , I'm glad you just went .
Growing Up as a Fourth-Generation Preacher's Kid
J.D. PearringHey , let's start from the beginning . Tell us about growing up , how you came to Christ .
Jon GrovesI grew up a fourth generation preacher's kid , which I tell people means I'm just four times as jacked up as most people . Dad , grandfather , great-grandfather so grew up in church and came to know Christ at an early age really , and I do remember it like it was yesterday . It was a Wednesday night service at our home church because I grew up in the Baptist world where it took three services to thrive , three to thrive . And we're there on a Wednesday night . I remember pieces of the message regarding this relationship that God wanted to restore with mankind and unusually , it wasn't one of those hellfire brimstone sermons . It was just a really regular one .
Jon GrovesBut the Holy Spirit drew me in that and so I went down to the altar next to the wall where the organ was hid behind , and a lady in the church came up to try and pray with me and as an outspoken preacher's kid I just looked at her and said ma'am , I know what I'm doing , I know what to do . How old were you ? I was getting ready to turn five years old , but if you can imagine , I got in a lot of trouble in Sunday school . If you can imagine I got in a lot of trouble in Sunday school , trying to think I knew more than the Sunday school teachers , and so I got saved at an early age , got called to ministry , also at an early age .
Jon GrovesAnd no , turning back . Well , I was at summer camp . When you're the preacher's kid , they fudge the rules and you get to go early . I was eight years old at summer camp . When you're the preacher's kid , they fudge the rules and you get to go early . I was eight years old at summer camp and really sensed this call to ministry . So when I got home , I walked into my grandpa's office at church and said grandpa , I think that God is calling me to preach . And he looked up over his glasses and he said no , he isn't . Close the door , I'm studying . And so I left his office and , really not knowing what to do with that , he didn't even give it a second thought . He just said no , he isn't . And so I went back , if memory serves , maybe a couple of weeks later , and said grandpa , I really think that that God is calling me to preach . And again same thing he goes son , stop bothering me and close the door on your way out . So I think I let a few months pass .
Jon GrovesUm , and I walked back into his office one night , and I do remember that night in particular . We were having a revival meeting at our church , and that was the thought that I just couldn't shake . So I went into his office before the Thursday or Friday night service and I said grandpa , I don't care what you say , god has called me to preach . And he looked at me and he goes all right , then you preach on Sunday . And so he stuck a uh , one of those little stepping stools behind the pulpit on Sunday morning and had me get up and preach my first sermon . I preached on the whole armor of God . It was exactly four minutes long and then I bawled my eyes out from nerves after it was done . But because he believed that to be genuine but he wanted it to be me , you me genuinely hearing from the Lord and not just trying to follow in family footsteps he kind of put me through the ringer there .
J.D. PearringWhat kind of church allows an eight-year-old to get up on ?
Jon GrovesSunday . Hey , well , it worked . I don't know , it had to stand on a stepping stool to be seen over top of the pulpit . But he said , all right , you preach Sunday morning , and so I did . The next Sunday my great-grandfather actually helped me put my sermon together on the whole armor of God , so it was a good time . I'm glad there's no recordings of it . Sounds like you're a precocious little kid . That's putting it lightly , but yes .
J.D. PearringThat's putting it lightly , but yes , wow , well , let's do this . Since you were raised in such an interesting pastoral family , what is one thing that your parents , grandparents , even great-grandparents , did right ?
Jon Grovesand one thing that you're trying to do different . When I think
Wisdom from Family Ministry
Jon Grovesof what they did right , I think that ministry was a family ministry . We were all involved and there was a piece of that where we were voluntold to do things . Anything that didn't get picked up we were in charge of doing . But I was involved at an early age in everything . But I was involved at an early age in everything .
Jon GrovesWhen I hear people talk about their church schedules now I kind of laugh because in my growing up experience we had the bus route Sunday morning , then Sunday school , then Sunday morning service , then take all the bus kids home , then choir practice , then Sunday night , then Tuesday was when we had Bible Institute and Wednesday night service and Thursday night visit all the people in the hospital and the shut in , and Friday night was addiction ministry and Saturday morning was men's prayer and then door to door knock and invite people to church . We did something every day of the week except for Monday and most people are like , oh man , that's burnout , that's way too much . And yeah sure , there's definitely validity to that , but a little kid was toted around and able to see the ins and outs , the good , the bad and the ugly in the behind the scenes of ministry and , while there are pieces of that that could have caused me to , you know , resent the Lord , it really gave me a deep understanding of this isn't about us , this is about people , this is about the Lord . Deep understanding of this isn't about us , this is about people , this is about the Lord . And so I really appreciate that I wasn't , you know , relegated to my room . I was in the car . I think I've been to more funerals , you know , in my life than most people will go to in two or three lifetimes , but that was very impactful to me .
Jon GrovesSo I'm trying to involve , you know , my family . You know I just have one daughter right now , but we're trying to make this a thing we do as a family , while also and I'll say the thing I'm trying to do different is I grew up in a very legalistic denomination and so we had more rules than God did , and we are definitely abandoning that in our family and really trying to serve the Lord out of the overflow of what we want to do and how we love Him and from a place of joy and not a place of obligation and checklist Christianity . So I'm really mindful of that as I'm approaching balancing marriage and ministry , and balancing parenting and ministry . There are some things that it's okay to say no to , because family is extremely important . And what would it profit us to have the biggest church and have the most unhealthy family ?
J.D. PearringWhat's one of the craziest rules in that denomination ?
Breaking Free from Legalism
Jon GrovesThere are some double standard rules that are interesting If you didn't grow up in it . There are things you might not ordinarily guess . So we had all the dress code rules . When I was a senior in high school , my rebellious phase was I bought my first pair of shorts and wore them secretly because the girls , you know , we were putting the cool back in culottes and the fun back in fundamentalism . That's what we said . And uh , so I bought my pair of shorts . I secretly went to see my first movie in the movie theater . You know , blockbuster totally acceptable , but going to the movie theater sin , um , uh , we , uh . We followed all the old Testament eating laws . So again , my senior year of rebellious teenage , whatever it was , I tried bacon and shrimp for the first time and found them to be wonderful you .
J.D. PearringSo you grew up with no , uh , no pork , or shellfish .
Jon GrovesAll . We followed all the rules , um , at least all the ones that we liked . You know , we , we still wore polyester , and that wasn't a sin .
J.D. PearringSo , um , I think wearing culottes is a sin for the guys and I don't think the cool was ever in culottes , I just uh . And why do they all have to be made out of grandma's you know nursing home window curtains ?
Jon GrovesWhy do they all have those patterns on them ? I'll never understand window curtains . Why do they all have those patterns on them ?
J.D. PearringI'll never understand . Well , speaking of grandma , no-transcript he was . What's that about ?
Jon GrovesUm , my , my parents ended up splitting up when I was younger . Um , ministry really took its toll on the both of them , and so they both had moral failings , and so my grandfather ended up adopting me . I ended up living in his house and doing everything with him . He was not perfect , but he was absolutely brilliant and his preaching was dynamic , but I watched how he navigated interesting situations with people and he was always very slow to speak , and I think that's one of the things that I want to be like him .
Jon GrovesHe was the guy that would fold his fingers , lean back in his office chair and take 30 seconds before he would respond , even when the other person was extremely heated . And so I just think back on somebody who was a pastor in a crazy denomination , so obviously he believed and abided by all of those things , but he did genuinely love the Lord and loved people and loved to have a good time as well . So it was kind of a weird dynamic . I think I probably would have run from the church , like a lot of the kids I grew up with , if I wouldn't have had his influence in my life , being steady and consistent and non-reactionary , if that makes sense .
J.D. PearringYeah , yeah , Wow . Well , that's great to hear that he was there for you . So you're eight years old , you're preaching call , the ministry is set and you planted a church at nine , or where'd you go from there ?
Jon GrovesWell , the I mean you got pretty rebellious , you wore shorts one time .
Jon GrovesSo I mean and that kind of does lead us into , like , the sad part of the story is , you know , I'm getting ready to graduate high school and I've decided I'm going to do college online , which was against the rules . You had to go to a fundamental Baptist college and I wasn't planning on doing that and I had asked questions that our denomination couldn't answer doctrinal questions and stylistic questions . And so the day I graduated high school , I hopped on a tour bus and started traveling the country preaching and doing music . I traveled with as a pianist for some Gaither artists and had a great time doing that , traveled in evangelism and preaching . And the problem was I had secretly been reading the ESV and not the King James and I had secretly been leading worship with Chris Tomlin songs and not you know , redback hymnal songs and not you know , read back hymnal songs .
Jon GrovesAnd so at that point the church that I had grown up in puts me on their salvation prayer list that they print in the bulletin each week , and they began praying for me to repent from this cult that I've joined . And there are some of those people to this day that pray each week for me to repent and finally serve the Lord , you know my wife wears pants and that's just proof . You know that we're living in utter sin . So I , you know I left , I was excommunicated from the family and from the church and that was pretty devastating , but praising the Lord for great counseling .
Jon GrovesIf I could give and I know you have emphasized this over the course of your ministry , jd if I could give anybody one piece of advice , it would be for pastors , pastors' wives and pastors' kids to embrace counseling as a routine . It's just so beneficial . And my church plant journey began just a few years down the road from that . I was in my early 20s and so I made a lot of the mistakes that an early 20s year old church planter would make . But God really had his hand on that and no turning back from there . I'm still planting churches and pastoring to this day
The Church Planting Journey
Jon Groves, you know , 10 years later , really because of the Lord's faithfulness .
J.D. PearringWhat made you look into church planting ? What was that about ?
Jon GrovesWell , as I was traveling in evangelism , I was preaching almost every Sunday somewhere . But when you get to the end of the year Thanksgiving and Christmas that kind of slows down . And I remember my first holiday season where I thought what church am I , who's my pastor , where's my church family ? And so I started exploring and this is kind of making a long story short but I started exploring and going like , where would I go if I wasn't in ministry ? And ultimately that led me to I did join a church and I did get under a great pastor and that was the best thing in the world . And , um , I owe you know where I'm at now to to two great pastors in particular who equipped me and and led me and are still involved in my life to this day . But , um , I , uh , I , I sat down in the office of my pastor at the time and he said hey , listen , I know , I know that you love evangelism , but I see in you this pastoral heart . And I was kind of wrestling with that already . And he said there's this group of people in this little town , uh , northwest of here , northwest of Nashville . I want you to go check it out . I want you to go meet them because they're going to be in desperate need of a church very soon . He knew some things that were going on in that community and he didn't give me a clue into any of that . I just went at his instruction and met with them and some of them knew I was coming and some of them knew I was coming and some of them knew why . And so as we began to discuss , it just became clear here's a community that needs a solid church . And so they asked and my pastor instructed like I think this will be good for you , and so we jumped in . No network , no funding . We had some sound equipment and like 10 people really , and that was about it . And it was phenomenal .
Jon GrovesI was living on my tour bus at the time . I was just a single guy , so I was living on my tour bus , so I didn't have any real expenses . I was living on my tour bus , so I didn't have any real expenses . So we just , you know , parachuted in , we jumped in and started meeting and started reaching people and our growth from that point was relatively exponential . That ultimately led to the planting of other churches , which was great . So I'd love to say I had this . You know , god pinpointed this city on the map . You know it was kind of like that , I guess , but really it was . Here's a group of needy people who don't have a church home and as we began to explore , there wasn't a good option for them within driving distance . So the Lord opened up that door and , through advisors in my life , I followed that wisdom and that instruction and I submitted to that authority and said okay , if this is what I'm sensing and also what my oversight is seeing , then I should at least explore it . And so that's how it all began .
J.D. PearringNow , how did you get to Orlando ? Why Orlando ?
Finding an Unchurched City
Jon GrovesWell , that particular church began to really grow . Like I said , multiple campuses , financial stability . I'm living in my favorite city . I had no intention of ever , ever leaving , but the Lord really began to shift my heart during 24 hours of unceasing prayer and fasting that we did , leading up to a special service .
Jon GrovesOne of the prayer requests posted on the wall in our auditorium was for America's top 100 most unchurched cities , and something about that really drew me in . We had prayed over that list . Barna puts it out every year , lifeway also puts it out every year . They draw their borders a little bit differently , so their lists aren't always identical , but I don't remember which one it was that we were reading . And I started praying over each of these cities and you know , in my mind , you know we were going to plant 80,000 campuses and be the largest mega church in the world . Those were my aspirations , and so I'm praying over these cities and I'm like Lord , give us guys who will plant in each of these cities and we're going to have campuses all over the country and we're going to reach these unchurched cities and really sense the Holy Spirit . Break my heart over . You're living in the city with the most churches per capita of any city in the world . You're living in Nashville , tennessee . What if I'm calling you to go to one of those cities ? Would you be willing ? And so I wrestled with that . Would I be willing even Not even sure if I was called yet , but would I be willing ? And I came to the decision yes , I would if that's what the Lord was doing .
Jon GrovesAnd I just began to notice that my biggest frustrations were what I would call Bible belt battles . You know how come you don't wear a tie ? How come you wear a tie too often ? How come we don't do hymns ? How come we did one hymn ? I don't like hymns at all . You know just just ridiculous things . And that you deal with if you have a church in Kentucky or Tennessee or Georgia or anywhere in that region . And I thought man , we're seeing people saved , but they're all showing up with stories of I grew up in church and ran , and there's nothing wrong with that , amen . Obviously that's a needed area of evangelism .
Jon GrovesBut I kind of missed reaching unchurched people and I didn't find myself doing that anymore . And so Orlando is the fourth most unchurched Metro in the country . Every major city in Florida is in the top 100 . And that's true of a couple other States , california being one , and I believe New York is the second , or Massachusetts , I can't remember . And so , again , to make a long story short , the Lord directed us here . So Olivia and I moved down here and began to explore the different regions of the Orlando metro and to find good churches and to find areas that didn't have good churches , and ultimately we landed on the North side , in Lake Mary um , where we can honestly say , um , in our city limits there's not a church that we could go to if we weren't in ministry . There are some good ones in downtown Orlando and in different regions , but the county and the area that we chose on the north side really affirms that unchurched statistic . It just didn't exist , and so it does . Now I hear that there's people there who wear shorts .
Jon GrovesThey even wear shorts to church sometimes , JD , and you got to pray for them , because they have not read Second Opinions yet and they don't know that Sister Karen is judging them and that her opinion really matters in eternity . And so we're just here to educate .
J.D. PearringWell , talk about a couple of the struggles that happened to church planters . You've been at it for a little bit , but what's ? A couple of things that have been rough .
Jon GrovesI think for a lot of church planters and I have a lot of church planter friends now you know , finances are always a big pain
Intentional Church Building
Jon Grovespoint . Some people are really good at fundraising and some people are really bad at it , and so maybe that's a skill set I know it's one I need to be better at , but I think that's been a pain point . But there have been some great resources that have helped us lately . As far as the struggles are concerned , you know , I think in the Bible Belt we really emphasize the launch large model , which has merit . Obviously some big networks use it , but I read a book called 8 to 15 by Tom Mercer on the subject of oikos , and so when we planted here , I'll say this was a struggle for us previously , but less a struggle here .
Jon GrovesIn the past we had planted services where people had to try and figure out how to become a church , and here we planted a church that had to figure out how to host a service , and I found it to be so much more fun that we learned how to be a family first , a disciple-making community first , a generous , linking arms . We serve together , people first , and the service is extremely important . Obviously that's a part of the New Testament commission for the ecclesia gather worship , but we didn't worry so much about if we had the best screens or graphics . First we worried about if we had a healthy community . So we didn't launch large here .
Jon GrovesWe launched intentional , and that comes with a different set of struggles . Your budget isn't't massive right away and you don't have your own building or whatever right away most of the time . There's a lot of things that you gain over time that some people seem to have right at the onset , but for us we found it to be a runway for an airplane rather than a launch pad for a rocket . When rockets run out of fuel , they fall down . When planes need to ref fuel , they fall down . When planes need to refuel , they can land , refuel and pick back up again , and so we're grateful for the runway .
J.D. PearringI'd say that has been somewhat of a struggle , but it's been a good one , good , good , good . So what else are you doing ? You're doing your own business here . You're starting with ride carts .
Jon GrovesYeah . So again , the preacher's kid in me remembers our church was a tracked passer-outer church and so if anybody else grew up in a conservative church , you knew that there was a track rack by the door and the pastor would guilt you every week into passing out . You know , pass out 50 tracks . Pastor would guilt you every week into passing out . You know , pass out 50 tracks . And so as a kid I did . I passed them out everywhere . And in my mind I remember passing out a track one day . It was a God's simple plan of salvation track with like 0.5 font that you could barely read and it was , you know , the whole book of Jon , crammed into two pieces of paper or something like that . And I handed it to this guy at Taco Bell and I was probably 12 years old and he put down his cigarette because you were still smoking in restaurants at this point and , uh , he rips it up and puts it back on the table and that was pretty . You know , most people don't do that , most people aren't that rude . But when we made it here to Orlando , we printed up our church invite cards , like we've always done and every church does , and we went to a park one day and we were handing them out and I noticed how many were in the trash can at the end of the day , not making a huge impact . And also , if we're doing the Great Commission , step one isn't where do you go to church . Step one is do you know Jesus ? So , with those pain points in mind , I wanted to give people something that they just couldn't and wouldn't throw away . So that's where the Little Jesus
The Little Jesus Company
Jon GrovesCompany was born . It's a church invite card but it's got this little Jesus figure attached to it and we have found them to be conversation starters .
Jon GrovesYou know , I was in Jason's deli the other day . The guy who's cleaning up the plates just kind of looked down , and so I looked up at him and I was like bro , how are you doing ? He's like man , if I'm honest , not good , just a lot of stuff at home . And I said , bro , you look like you could use a little Jesus today . And he goes yeah , I could . And so I handed him one of these little Jesus cards and it , like it , brought a smile to his face . He's like that's corny . He straight up said he's like that's corny he's like . But it's so cool .
Jon GrovesAnd , uh , we're kind of our family's famous in Cracker Barrel . We eat there once a week and we're trying to win all of Cracker Barrel to Jesus , because if it's going to be Jesus' first favorite restaurant , with Chick-fil-A and Waffle House to follow , then we figure all the employees need to be saved . You're from the South , buddy . You're from the South . Well , we're known as the little Jesus people in there now because most of the waitresses have the little Jesus with our church info on it in their apron , and one lady who typically fights to wait on us . Her name is Tysa . When we walk in she'll ask for us to be in her section and she always looks over at us from across the way and pulls out her little Jesus card with her honor church info on it and she'll go . Hey guys , I got Jesus with me today and one day Tysa is going to go to church and when she does it's going to be for us . So it's been so successful .
Jon GrovesWe've had like five or six other iterations with different projects and different little trinkets with them that have worked for different groups . So we're going to try it . We're going to see if we can't equip churches around the world to . Our goal is to have 1 million Jesus conversations in the next 12 months , and so we set our sights high , and I'll let you know when the store launches . We've got a few churches beta testing right now and we're supposed to launch the website here in a couple of weeks , but it's exciting . We'll see how it goes . Cool , cool , cool .
J.D. PearringWell , hey , give us a leadership tip .
Churchill's Leadership Wisdom
Jon GrovesWhat a great question . I've been reading Winston Churchill lately , so I've been reading Winston Churchill lately , so this is my most recent in my mind . That has been helpful to me in the season we've been walking through , frustrated with him because he would not duck and take cover . And he looked back at them and noted in one of his famous news articles his reason for that is at the point that you've heard the bullets , they've already whizzed on by . There's no point in taking cover over something that has already passed us . Let's just keep charging the enemy . And when I read that I knew he meant it as something for war , but he really patterned his own leadership after that and it's impacted me on a spiritual level .
Jon GrovesThe fiery darts of the enemy are being shot at us , and sometimes from the bow of friendly fire , people that are within our own camp . But we've been given armor for a reason , and the armor is not so that when the fiery darts was by , so that we can take cover and huddle up and do all of that in the name of recovery . It's never retreat time . Uh , it's already the the fiery darts already been fired . So why take cover over something that's already happened ? And so for us . It's really been kind of a shake it off and keep charging when those things get shot at us .
Jon GrovesAgain , a Churchill quote there's nothing more exhilarating than to be shot at to no avail and the enemy's never winning . For as long as we've got that armor on , the enemy is never taking ground . His gates of hell are never prevailing against the church . So let's just keep moving forward . And that's my tip to any discouraged pastor today , thinking about the words that have been shot at you like bullets , the people that have left that have felt as though an arrow has pierced your heart . Those are all past , tense things . So don't huddle up and attempt to hide in future for something that's already taken place in past . Just keep moving forward and let what's in the past be in the past . Let tomorrow worry for itself . You've been called to take one more step today . That's my leadership tip today .
J.D. PearringWell , great Well , he started at eight preaching on the full armor of God , and he's still at it . So thanks , so much , Jon Thanks for your story . That's a good word from Winston Churchill , who had a lot of success but he got beat up on the way , so he kept going Never give up , right .
Jon GrovesAnd make sure you listen to JD Paring's 10 Things that Kill Momentum talk . If you listen to that talk and you don't lead well after that , you're failing on purpose .
J.D. PearringI'm going to check it out . I'm going to check it . Hey , thanks , Jon . Thanks for being on with us today .
AnnouncerThanks for joining the Leading Conversations podcast . We hope that you found it both helpful and encouraging . At Excel Leadership Network , our focus is on the church planter rather than the church . If you'd like to find out more about us , visit our webpage at excelnetworkorg . Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss any future episodes . See you next time with another leading conversation .
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