Welcome And Guest Introduction

Announcer 0:01

Welcome to A Leading Conversations Classic Podcast. We've searched through our early episodes to find some of the best just for you. If you've been with us from the beginning, you may have heard some of these. If you haven't, enjoy this classic episode. Welcome to the Leading Conversations Podcast, sponsored by the Excel Leadership Network. On each episode, JD Perrin will have conversations with church planting pastors and leaders from around the country. You can learn more about how to connect with Excel at the end of this podcast. Let's join JD now and listen in on this leading conversation.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

Well, welcome to the Leading Conversations Podcast with Excel Leadership Network. Today we're thrilled to have the legendary Larry Osborne with us from San Diego. Larry, thanks for being here.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Glad I could be.

SPEAKER_02 1:01

Hey, um, I've heard you speak and read your books and done

Larry’s Early Faith And Family Roots

SPEAKER_02 1:05

all that, but um, I'd really love to just hear your story a little bit. Can you tell us how did you come to Christ? How did you come to faith in Jesus?

SPEAKER_01 1:13

Well, I uh was blessed. I grew up in a really great Christian home. Um, I sometimes feel like I've started life on third base. I don't have a father wound or any of that kind of stuff that so many of us have to struggle with. But uh, I my parents went to a really jacked-up church. We had more rules than Jesus could have thought of if he'd lived to be 62 instead of 32 on this earth. Uh and so uh it was just everything I didn't want to be. Uh and so I I stayed away from the Lord uh that way, though, probably depending on your theology, accept the Lord as a as a young kid, or uh just meaning a nod to God, we could argue that one later. Uh, but uh never really made a strong commitment to like, okay, this stuff is real, uh, until right before my senior year of high school. I was on a church camp uh and um reading through Matthew, and it just it just struck me this is true. This isn't religious history, this is history, and had an immediate love for scripture uh that came with that. I started teaching my friends Bible studies. Uh, and then uh a buddy invited me to go see this heretic little movement that was starting out in Costa Mesa. There were about 400 people there, a bunch of hippies, long-haired kind of things back in that era. And I went there to this forbidden church, and they taught through the King James Bible 10 chapters during that night. Had a band that had some music, kind of like I was listening to on the radio, um, and uh was a racially diverse band on top of that. And I came home and told my folks, oh, I'm gonna be a pastor. Not because I had any idea of where that movement was gonna go, but I'd never been in an experience where I felt like I could be Larry and uh be in vocational ministry. So, with my love for the word and stuff, I thought, oh, I'll probably maybe get a degree and teach the Bible in a seminary, something like that. And that just caused me to fall in love with the local church. So my salvation, my call to vocational ministry, all of those things really took place in about a nine-month period of time and never shifted. But I had this incredibly fortunate background of uh consistent parents who didn't buy all the garbage of the legalism in the church, but also were not cynical

From Legalism To Loving Scripture

SPEAKER_01 3:35

like you can be. Uh, and so I kind of look back and I go, I had a perfect storm in the positive sense of that. Uh so that was my story. And I went and started doing Bible studies, came to North Coast at a young age and never left. Just kept doing the same thing. North Coast is a youth group for adults.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Hey, you mentioned that you don't have a father wound. So, what is one or two things that uh your dad or that your parents did really well? Um, anything that you took from them said, I'm gonna do this with my kids too.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

But sir, like everything I did. I just thought I'm parenting this weekend, and everything in that message came from from scripture, and almost everything I learned the easy way was just mimicking my mom and dad. They both came with obsessable backgrounds, and God started a life-giving string that's now 18 great grandchildren for them. Um, so wow, you know, off top of my head, there were numerous things. Is one is what I just mentioned, their lack of cynicism. Uh, they didn't buy the legalism and all that, but they didn't have this, they they taught me a sense of of uh submission, which is so foreign today. Everybody's a free agent. Uh, and though they didn't agree with everything, they understood God's in control of who's in control. Uh, and so a biblical sense of submission that's not blind. Hebrew midwives said, hey, they pop them out before we get there. Rahab covered, you know, the apostles didn't quit preaching the gospel when told not to. But we we really lack an understanding of what it means to submit to authority, and I think that was a great gift. Uh, if you're gonna be there, be a part of it. If not, move on, but you don't tear it down or whatever. Uh, I was an athlete, a really great one in my own mind, but probably not to those people who are watching back then. Do you get better with age? I was I was really good. Yeah, it is. I'm amazed I wasn't drafted. But uh the thing is, my my dad was present uh at my games, he didn't take me out after a bad game and show me all the things wrong, and he didn't uh over-celebrate the good games, which can create unintentionally this sense of, yeah, but I am a little more loved. I I just had a dad who was interested in where I was,

Discovering Calvary Chapel And A Call To Ministry

SPEAKER_01 6:10

and uh I I've always felt a sense that God loves me on the good days and the bad days, uh, more so than some of the baggage uh that we can carry. Uh, I had the experience of working on a book with uh uh Wayne Codero and Francis Chan, and we all flew up to Portland, sat in an old school uh uh coffee shop with one of those triangle microphones and just told our stories. The book was called Sifted, How God Sifted Us. And at the end of it, I was just fascinated on the impact our three backgrounds had on our view of who God was. Uh, and I I just I don't have to feel like I have to earn his favor. I can give him pleasure and I will be disciplined and suffer the consequences that come with sin. But uh I don't I don't have a dad who's angry, I gotta win over. And uh that really carried over the way I wanted to parent my kids, and uh, I think the way I was parented. Uh, come to me if you're weary and heavy laden, my my burden is light and my yoke is easy. If not, you can never do enough. You can never do enough, you can never, which is a lot of the Christian ethos.

SPEAKER_02 7:24

That's incredible advice for uh those of us with younger children or even grandchildren. Now your folks are still alive now, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:32

Yeah, they're in uh they're in assisted living, uh, but like mentally they're they're right where they were. Dad's 95, mom's 91. So we're very lucky that that you can talk to them about anything and they can remember it all and they know who you are. So uh uh incredible blessed with that.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

That's that's great. Now you said your call to ministry just kind of happened. You went and um did they really do 10 chapters in the King James?

SPEAKER_01 8:03

Yep, 10 chapters verse by verse. And I thought if this is a heretical, you know, we it was an Us Who are no more church, uh, that I was raised in, yeah, uh type of thing. You know, everybody else is a suspect Christian, and these guys certainly were. And I remember thinking, well, first of all, like I was just incredible teaching gift, kind of an uh overview thing. But I remember thinking, if this is the devil, I need more of the devil. I've never had the Bible explain quite so clearly. And he just marched right through the whole Bible, took a few years to do it and start over again. And uh, it was an era today. We call it uh modern man won't listen to, uh, or postmodern man. Back then they said all the things, saying same things about modern man, this emerging generation, you know, a short attention spans, all the same stuff here today. Uh and none of that was true. You just had to treat us like we were okay, not telling this younger generation it was a piece of trash, and just tell me what the Bible says boldly, and it worked.

Early Jobs, Youth Ministry, And Saying Yes

SPEAKER_01 9:10

Thousands and thousands came.

SPEAKER_02 9:13

Wow, and then you jumped into youth ministry.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

Yeah, I got I got hired by a church, told me they I, you know, I was going to college and working uh pretty nearly full time as a journeyman retail clerk, got two nights off and wouldn't teach Bible studies.

SPEAKER_02 9:28

And where were you working? What what uh what store?

SPEAKER_01 9:31

Uh it was called Alphabeta, they don't exist anymore.

SPEAKER_02 9:34

Oh yeah, I did Rouse and Albertsons.

SPEAKER_01 9:37

Yep, okay.

SPEAKER_02 9:38

My way through college and grad school.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

Yeah, great, great job, good union benefits, all kinds of stuff like that. Uh and then I taught Bible studies in my two free nights, and somebody came along and said, Hey, we'll pay you to teach Bible studies and do some social events. So I said, I'm gonna pray about that. I'm in. Almost a Balam prayer. I don't want to ask. You might say no. Uh and like, you're gonna pay me to do what I used to do for free. I've kind of never forgotten that. Uh, I don't understand pastors who claim about what a terrible job it is. All of us are doing what we used to do for free.

SPEAKER_02 10:16

Good point. Now, how did you get uh to San Marcos and North Coast?

SPEAKER_01 10:21

Uh actually, uh it's uh uh Vista is where our main campus is. It was in uh Carlsbad when I came and then moved to Oceanside Vista. We've been everywhere, plus our campuses now, we're everywhere. But uh I uh I had known the guy who started the church. Uh, and I was 28, Nancy's 24. He was going on to get his PhD in New Testament. Church was about a year and a half old, 70 adults, me in the Carlsbad High School cafeteria. And uh I thought that's amazing. Uh like I can I can fly here. Uh, I was youth pastor in a very large Baptist church, second largest at that point in the country. Uh, paid well, big, large group, 24-25. They were letting me be the second preacher, but I knew I'd never get behind that door where the big decisions were made uh for another 10 or 15 years. So I said, I'd rather fly in a small cage uh if you'll

Joining North Coast And The “Dark Years”

SPEAKER_01 11:15

let me do that. And so lo and behold, they took a chance on this kid, and I never let him leave me.

SPEAKER_02 11:22

So now um you've told the story before the first uh first several years. Um I guess they weren't horrible, but yeah, I think you had a breakthrough there, right?

SPEAKER_01 11:35

Yeah, we Nansen, I still call them the dark years. Uh, there were 70 adults when I came. Any young pastor that like that planted it, or when I'm coming, you're gonna have a bunch of rug wraps. So maybe I think 128 kids, infants, everything on my candidating Sunday. We quickly grew to about 90, 95 adults, and then three years later, we'd grown by one more person. Uh lots of leaving. And so um, you know, during that time, I think I was using the people I had to try to reach the people I wanted to reach. Uh, and at the end of that point, I kind of thought maybe I've always had really big youth ministries, the two I had were the largest in the history of the church, was because I'm I'm started at third base in a really large church with a crappy program. And maybe I'm not quite what I thought I am. So around that time, I tore up the dream sheet of a thousand or more. That was kind of my dream. Stay in a community a lifetime, have a thousand or more, and changed it to 300 or so in 30, 40 years. We can get to that. I've done okay. Uh, and really it produced the ability to relax. People think, oh, that's why you grew. I go, no, that's why I started to enjoy ministry. I got rid of the potential trap, I got rid of the treadmill, and I stopped using the people to reach the people I want to reach and started shepherding the flock I have, like Peter says, to do. Uh, and I think we grew by all of 15 that next year, 20 the next year. It wasn't like some huge turnaround, but things just started going up in the right, and then over the years, just exponentially just continued, you know, going steeper and steeper up. But I had no idea at that point when I made those changes, that's what the result would be.

SPEAKER_02 13:21

How did you get rid of the treadmill? I mean, that's one thing that um young pastors, church planters, I mean, it it's in many ways, you know, it's it's a really competitive industry, if you want to call it that. How did you step off of that?

SPEAKER_01 13:36

Well, my mentor used to tell me that pastors were among the most insecure

Tearing Up The Dream Sheet

SPEAKER_01 13:40

people he he knew. And he talked about a lot having father wounds. And so they're still trying to prove something. So for me, I think A, I was blessed without a father wound, which made it easier to believe or come to the point where I really believe, not intellectually, but in my heart, I have nothing to prove and no one to impress. And I'm just called to shepherd these people well. I'm I'm not called to create an ingrown organization, but all I can do is lead the horse to water and salt the oats. Uh, and I I tended to think that I was the one producing growth. And so the same mental math that made me depressed would have made me arrogant if we'd exploded it with growth. You know, it's exact same mental math, just a different X factor. So uh for me, I always tell people ministry be uh vocational ministry became something that I felt I'm called to and I'm comfortable in when I quit judging whether I'm a success or failure based on how many people came. You know, I'm a success or failure based on my leading the horse to water and my salt and the oats, and my preparing the horse, but after that it's out of my control. Uh and yeah, I've enjoyed the size that came later, but I actually enjoyed the size that was small because I relaxed. I said, I have been called to shepherd these people and shepherd them in an environment in which they can say to their friends, come and see. But after that, it's like, whatever, I'm out of control. I mean, maybe I'm not quite so gifted as I thought I was. And that took me off the treadmill because the treadmill, you know, people we confuse uh encouragement with evaluation. And the treadmill was because I wasn't living up to all the potential everybody told me I had. And once I decided, well, I kind of suck, you know, I'm I'm not gonna play in the NBA or D1, like you know, this is like high school

Stepping Off The Growth Treadmill

SPEAKER_01 15:40

and you know uh rec league. Then I was like, okay, I'll have fun in rec league. And next thing I know, a lot of people came to watch. Incredible, just relaxing.

SPEAKER_02 15:55

It's obvious that you've got an incredible leadership gift, incredible teaching gift, but you have a shepherding gift too. You don't have a you have a shepherding heart. You you have a way of just um uh taking care of the people, and so much of the the treadmill out there says, be a rancher, be a rancher, be a rancher, don't be a shepherd. But you have this shepherding heart.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

Well, what happened is during the that time when I realized my responsibility to take care of the flock I had was really where that was developed. Because I'm a big L leader by nature, I see the whole, not the individual. But once I realized this hole is not going to get very big, it's you know, probably not gonna be a real big church, just which is what I thought at that point. Uh, well, I gotta focus on the people. But I totally agree with those who tell us we're supposed to be a rancher as we get larger. But the problem is somewhere around three or four hundred, we stop seeing faces and we start counting numbers. And and numbers are numbers lie, numbers point to a story. So I want the numbers, all that. But what a good rancher does is a good rancher doesn't shepherd every lamb, but a good rancher makes sure every lamb is shepherded, and that's that's the difference. That uh, like a man, I haven't done weddings for decades, unless you're my buddy or my family, you know. But I haven't done funerals. But if I know you, I show up at your funeral. So, you know, obviously, with the kind of size we became somewhere around way back two, three thousand, all kinds of time boundaries had to be set in. But that wasn't, well, I don't do it, someone else will do it. It was still my job, like Sam Walton in early Walmart, to get in the truck and drive around and find out what's going on in the store. Uh so to this day, if I meet somebody after a service and hey, have you found a life group? No, I write your name down. I then the next day go into the life group pastor and say, here's your name and address, would you follow up? And it's still on my to-do list until I circle back and find out they followed up and is that person in a group or not? And I think a lot of people

Shepherd Vs Rancher: Building Systems That Care

SPEAKER_01 18:10

think that, well, what once you're a rancher, all you do is send a memo or a text message or an email, and that's off your plate. And and the weird thing is if you uh inspect what you expect, you'll start getting it. So it, you know, it's not like I got a dog everybody. Once people realized as we would grow larger, like Larry cared that this was really followed through, and you hire the kind of people who follow through, that just keeps going down the down the food chain, layer after layer after layer. But if all you do is ask people to do things and you never go and check, well, you're not shepherding. It's like a friend of mine in an extremely large church, they're always talking about how many people sign up for the life groups, but they never know who shows up for life groups. You figured a way to count the money to the penny, but you can't tell you can't figure a way to have real-time light uh attendance. Uh I guess money is more important than people. So, yeah, you gotta become a rancher. Other, you know, that's uh Jethro's advice to Moses, but it wasn't that you become so distant that well, it's not my job when the shepherding's not done. No, delegation is still your it's it's it's why the navy fires the captain of the ship when all kinds of problems happen. But we're we we kind of go, Well, I didn't do those problems, yeah. But it's on your ship, buddy.

SPEAKER_02 19:40

So you've instilled that shepherding value to everybody on your team.

SPEAKER_01 19:46

Yeah, and Chris Brown, too, who's our lead pastor now, passes that same thing down. Uh but you know, you model it and then you check it, it will be done. But um so I'm really big. I I'm I'm a there's two sides of the coin. I'm always telling lead pastors as your church grows bigger, there's a reason the quarterback wears a red jersey, wear it. You know, don't let the guild gene beat you up and wear you out. There are limits to what you can do, but there's never an end to making sure people are shepherded. If if you think we're too big to do that, then you should put out a no room in the end sign and start from now on funding the one across the street that will actually take care of the people.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

Wow. Hey, you mentioned Chris Brown. Talk about that uh that transition. Um, and then tell us a little bit about what you're doing now.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

Well, Chris Brown became a lead pastor three years ago. Uh I the Lord told me COVID was coming, so I said passing on to him.

SPEAKER_02 20:50

Uh you are brilliant. How did you?

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Yeah, he had a year before COVID, then had to walk through all of that stuff. Uh, he's been uh was a North Coast as

Inspect What You Expect: Follow-Through Culture

SPEAKER_01 21:00

one of our senior pastors in our kind of uh think of partners model. I was managing partner, but we had partners. We were all called senior pastors, but not co uh kind of co for the four years before. So he's the lead pastor now. I I teach, I taught 21 times this year. Uh so I'm still here. I'm in my office at North Coast now, but I'm not involved in the top leadership uh level things. He's kind of creating his own team with me as an advisor, uh, and uh when he wants it. Uh and then um I do kingdom ministry. So my title is Teaching Pastor, Kingdom Ambassador. Uh, I'm as busy as I've ever been, but some of my focus uh is in other areas. I I have some gifts with finances. I oversaw that, but we just recently hired uh a new CFO. So I'm I'm like an advisor to him, showing him the ropes, and then it's just teaching, advising when people. People want it. Lots of kingdom stuff. So I'm still full time. I'm not close to feeling ready to retire.

SPEAKER_02 22:09

But uh one of the things I'm I'm seeing with uh especially with uh boomer pastors is guys that are hanging on way too long. Um you seem to have kind of hit the sweet spot of being able to do what you want to do, but also uh empowering younger leaders. How did that happen?

SPEAKER_01 22:28

Well, that what I tell people, there's a lot of things that don't happen when you suddenly decide to have them. They happen well when you decide way ahead of time to do it. You know, if you're not tithing now, you're not gonna tithe when you win the lottery. And if you're you think missions is overseas or more than 45 minutes away, when your church is is dying but has a great building, you won't give it to the wildfire God is rising up down, you know, a couple miles away. It starts now with blessing the one across the street. And you're not gonna raise up the next generation if in your 30s and 40s you're not being a barnabus, raising up other people. So we had a history that started when North Coast was 300, that I'm not gonna be the only guy on the pulpit. And the other guy in the pulpit's not gonna be only when I'm out of town or speaking at a conference. Uh, in fact, early days I'd come home from vacation a day early, so people had seen me making announcements. So it was the other teacher, not a substitute. So that just goes way deep to 30 years of even the idea we had, which is you know, description, not prescription, but you know, having four or five senior pastors sharing that title. Um 15

Succession Done Early And Well

SPEAKER_01 23:40

years ago, trading off Easters with Chris Brown. Uh, you know, it was all those things established that we are a place that can stay young as I'm growing older and has a deep, deep bench of quality leaders ready to step in. Um, what I find more often is some guy in my age stays in that role as the primary thing. Then they look around and the church is filled with gray hair, not because of the community, but just because they can't reach anybody younger anymore. And then they go in a panic and go, let's get somebody young. Uh, and then the church goes through all kinds of trouble because they they want to reach younger people without doing the things that reach younger people. Uh, so uh you you you you don't do this three years out, you do this 15, 20 years out. Uh, and that's why it looks so effortless and easy. And by the way, it's not effortless and easy, it's always a harder transition than it looks. But what you want is it to look very easy to the congregation and the people that are bringing their friends to hear about Jesus. Uh, and and on a one to 10, we probably did a 12 of that. Uh, but again, we were just continuing the path we already had. We weren't my last few years, the fastest growing part of our church was elementary school-age families. So it wasn't some big shift, it was a shift to a leader who could take us into the future.

SPEAKER_02 25:08

Well, you you have modeled that aspect just incredibly well because it it did look pretty seamless on the outside. The other thing you're modeling well, and this kind of just drives me nuts is a guy gets to be 60, 62, 65, and then they decide I'm gonna retire, move to Idaho, and fish. Or and and I'm just like, well, wait a minute. Is this a career? Is it a calling? You like you said, you're working full-time, you're as busy as ever. Maybe there's not that pressure, but how did you make that happen? And how can you encourage other people to think a little bit long term?

SPEAKER_01 25:46

Well, first of all, I don't like to be the Holy Spirit or guy with somebody, so maybe some guys are called to for I I vocational ministry is just a role in my mind. Okay, like I could have left it long ago. What I would have never stopped doing

Staying In The Calling Without Burning Out

SPEAKER_01 26:00

is teaching the Bible and discipling people. And I live in a weird era where you actually get paid to do that and you don't have to make tents always. So that's cool. Uh so the guy goes in fishes, and I want nothing to do with people. I go, what happened to your soul? You must have burnt yourself out along the road. If you want to move to a small town and and and relax and have like I get that, but you know, as long as you can, and God will send people to you in your living room or someone disciple and teach the Bible. But I think part of it is is uh I long ago, and again, this is description, not prescription. Okay, I can't find a Bible verse for it, but early on, I decided I wanted to when our church began to grow significantly. I said, I want to show the business leaders in our church how to lead something large and complex healthily. And they don't get sabbaticals, so I never took one. I'm not down on guys who take one, but what I want to do is I wanted to show how to live a life with with a margin on a regular basis, not exhaustion and then refreshment, exhaustion, then refreshment. And so I uh JD, I think that's where I find myself where I am today, is uh I'm not worn out. Uh I refuse to run as if every day was the playoffs. I knew the difference between regular season games and the playoffs. And you always play her in the playoffs, they might never come again. We call that opportunity or crisis. But if you play the regular season like the playoffs, you're gonna be like the Warriors were a few years ago, where they won the most games in history but lost the championship in the seventh game because Steph had a bad ankle and a few other things, and by two points, you lose it all. And I just said I don't want to do that, I want to finish strong. Um, and that means I don't run around with a monster drink every day.

SPEAKER_02 28:01

Well, talk about that. Um, your rhythms then. Did you what do they call the NBA where the the guys are taken off? It's like uh planned

Rhythms, Sleep, And Boundaries That Last

SPEAKER_02 28:10

rest.

SPEAKER_01 28:11

Um, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:12

What what sort of rhythms do you have, other than having more of a team?

SPEAKER_01 28:16

Well, I would tell every everybody listening is first of all, they've got to be true to you that you need to judge the fruit, not the watering schedule. So you're asking me a watering schedule question, and I'll be glad to answer. But a lot of times we try to go to battle in solid armor. Uh, and well, so for instance, if to use Myers-Briggs language, if you're a strong J who can't play until all the work is done, then you're gonna have another type of rhythm you need to build into your life, uh, based on who you're married, high maintenance, low maintenance spouse, a different type of rhythm. Um, I'm a Myers-Briggs P, uh, which means the most important thing for me is some sense of control. Uh, and so a highly controlled schedule where suddenly I have Friday completely off, but all the rest of the week is like it doesn't work. A marriage that waits until we have a date night doesn't work for me. Uh, so one of the things early on, again, this is all description, not prescription, but uh when I was younger, there was a lot of stuff on sleep, like there is now. And during that era, it was conspicuous consumption and go, go, go, go, go. All my friends bragged about how little sleep they got. I had a friend who had three alarm clocks to make sure. And as I'm reading the stuff on sleep, it just made sense to me. So I made a decision, I have no meetings till 9 a.m. And I'm not gonna use an alarm clock. I'm gonna let, I'm not gonna be ashamed that I need eight hours of sleep or eight and a half or whatever it is, you know, and feel like I want to be that guy with six hours to maximize my life. Um, now I will have a pre-9 a.m. meeting occasionally if necessary, but pretty much I'm at a conference. Can we meet for breakfast? Nope. Uh hey, can we meet for bread? Nope. Even here at North Coast. Once a month I met with elders at 7:30 on a Saturday. So I've spent my life with decent sleep. Unashamed that I need eight hours of sleep to eight and a half, eight forty-five. It's like I do that. Uh, and if I wake up at five, great, I got a lot going on that morning. Sometimes I wake up at 5, 5:30, other times I sleep till seven. And then I've got a couple hours to find myself. Myers Briggs P. Who am I? Get cut down the emails, get that. So I can go into work and actually not jump from meeting to meeting to meeting. Uh, and then I would leave at three because I had an ability to work at home. I had an office at home. So uh I'm in the office nine to three, uh, and I was gone. I also made in a thing, I wasn't gonna be out more than two nights a week. Um so yeah, during crisis and opportunity, I'd be out. But I just early

Marriage, Travel, And Relational Health

SPEAKER_01 31:00

on said, I'm not gonna show up at everybody's 50th anniversary party just because they want to brag I was there. And if they leave the church because I with my family instead of running off, because every night has a crisis, everybody wants to counsel after work. Uh, and I just said no to those things. And if people left, let them leave. Uh, and selfish pigs did leave, but not many.

SPEAKER_02 31:27

So so you're saying get to know yourself, figure out your own rhythms, but take that seriously.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

Yeah, and your spouses.

SPEAKER_02 31:34

Well, you said something earlier. You said whether you have a high maintenance or a low maintenance spouse. And I just want to say publicly, we all have low maintenance spouses, they're very low maintenance, they are wonderful. Yeah. Go ahead, you're gonna talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 31:50

Yeah, well, like like for instance, Nancy is a very strong independent personality. She's not some of us, I I'm probably more needy than she is relationally, and so what that means is for me, I could I can travel now on short one or two-day trips, and it's it's a good day for her because she's able to get all kinds of things done, she's got to take care of the baby, uh, and all that. And uh then we come back and and like we never had the date night because like we do this weird thing, we talk regularly. What a bizarre idea. Uh, and uh just stay connected. But it to me, it's all about who did I marry? Because my job was to maximize my wife and maximize my kids, not for them to maximize my career. That's a really weird reading of Ephesians. Uh I said career.

SPEAKER_02 32:43

I I agree with that. I have a hard time with that term career. Well, hey, thank you for telling your story. I want to leave with this last question here. Just give us um one or two tips that you'd give leaders today. Anything you want to tell us, take a couple minutes, just give us the the Larry

Final Wisdom: Grace, Rest, And Joy

SPEAKER_02 33:00

Osborne wisdom.

SPEAKER_01 33:04

Well, first of all, you have nothing to prove and no one to impress. Your theology says that all day long. Does your life say that? You have nothing to prove and no one to impress. And uh I I I I would just say do your best under the circumstances, and then take a nap. We we've we've got all these voices. Satan is the accuser of the brethren, brethren. He's he's the one who stands before God and says, The only reason Job serves you is because everything's so good. And he accuses us day and night, and he's he's the most marvelous liar. A third of the angels actually believed him. Think how good a liar you gotta be to pull that off. And he's always telling us we haven't done enough, we're not good enough. Um and I I just want to die a life where I live my theology. Uh but you know, the stuff I tell people about our Lord and about grace and mercy, I I really believe for myself. Um and I really believe that if I'm weary and I come unto him, he's not gonna say, I'll show you weariness. He's he's gonna say, No, actually, my burden's light, my yoke is easy. And when I send you through the valley of death and the hard places to get somewhere else, you're gonna find my burden is light, my yoke is easy then because you're gonna get the grace on your doorstep every day to walk through whatever hard valley you're walking through. But uh, I think a lot of us we've got a guilt chain and we don't realize it's from the enemy.

SPEAKER_02 34:43

So relax, take take a nap.

SPEAKER_01 34:46

Do your best, relax, take a nap, and enjoy life. You know, uh and again, there's gonna be hard things. My wife nearly died of cancer. I've had really hard things in my life. We had a financial thing out of our control that was not our fault. That was but what I learned is God does exactly what he says he does. In the day of the trial, the grace shows up on the doorstep. And when I go through trials of my own because I'm trying to prove something for Jesus, I the his grace is not there because he didn't send me down that path.

SPEAKER_02 35:22

Hey, I'm gonna ask you this one last thing. What's what's one you said enjoy life? What's one thing you're doing now to enjoy life?

Closing And Excel Network Info

SPEAKER_01 35:30

Yeah, the same thing I've always done is I I again I I I woke up today, I looked at my calendar and I said I want to do the best I can, and then I've got some friends we're having dinner with tonight, and I'm just gonna embrace that, enjoy that. And uh just you know, I I like to start every day, Lord. What are you calling me to do today? Not what does everybody else want me to do today, but what are you calling me to do today? And if there's the everybody else, it's gonna be my wife, my kids, my parents, my family, you know, and it's just a great way to live.

SPEAKER_02 36:03

Um well, thanks for living that way. Thanks for being uh such a great example, and um uh thanks for sharing. Uh, you know, every time I'm around you, it's like nothing to prove, no one to impress. Uh, you you live that out, and uh, you know, you prove that Jesus is alive and you impress us with his love. So thank you so much for being with us today.

SPEAKER_01 36:26

Thank you. It's a pleasure.

Announcer 36:28

Take care, y'all. Thanks for joining the Leading Conversations Podcast. We hope that you found it both helpful and encouraging. At Excel Leadership Network, our focus is on the church planter rather than the church. If you'd like to find out more about us, visit our webpage at Excelnetwork.org. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss any future episodes. See you next time with another leading conversation.