Introduction And Sponsor

Announcer 0:06

Welcome to the Leading Conversations Podcast, sponsored by the Excel Leadership Network. On each episode, JD Perry will have conversations with church planting pastors and leaders from around the country. You can learn more about how to connect with Excel at the end of this podcast. Let's join JD now and listen in on this leading conversation.

J.D. Pearring 0:29

Welcome to another edition of the Excel Leadership Network Leading Conversations Podcast. For this episode, I am very excited to have the great, the wonderful, the amazing Harry Kelm with us, all the way from Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. Harry, thanks for being here. Glad to be here, JD. What's the temp in Edmonton these days?

Harry Kelm 0:54

It is currently uh below freezing. Uh it's uh we're expecting uh five to ten centimeters of snow today. Um, I I always say that March and April in Alberta is like uh winter and spring having a bare knuckle fight. And one day uh spring seems to be winning, the next day winter seems to be winning. So we're we're in a in a winter trend right now, but it'll it'll be nicer come the weekend.

J.D. Pearring 1:29

Well, I admire people like you who can live in that uh climate. Just means you're a strong person. I grew up in uh Southern California. I'm such a weather wimp, lived in Denver, and when we got to March and April in Colorado, I was ready for uh, hey, it's it's springtime, it's beach time, and like you said, it's winter one day, spring the next. Yeah. Give us uh tell us one great thing about Edmonton. Sell Edmonton to us.

Harry Kelm 2:01

Well, uh for myself and my wife, Edmonton is the place where our grandkids live. And so uh when I had the opportunity of uh taking my current position, they said I could I could live anywhere I wanted, uh as long as there was an NAB North American Baptist Conference hub there. And Edmonton was where my son and daughter-in-law and kids lived. It's um it's a it's the capital city of Alberta, so it has all the provincial grounds, uh, a lot of beautiful stuff to walk around there. It's got the river going right through it. So a lot of walking paths along the river. Um it's uh, but it's primarily where my uh my grandkids live. So that's uh that was the draw.

J.D. Pearring 2:44

It's a beautiful city. It actually reminds me a lot of Sacramento, just with the river and uh kind of a mid-sized large city. My uh son-in-law is from there. He's a huge Oilers fan as well. Is that your are you a hockey fan?

Harry Kelm 3:00

Yeah, I am not a hockey fan. I came to Canada relatively later in life, and so I never uh I never played hockey. I never really watched hockey growing up. Uh, we moved our son, who was in grade 10, uh, when we came up to pastor a church in Calgary, right south of Edmonton, about three hours, and he bought a video game and he learned hockey by playing video games. He learned the names, he learned the rules. And I thought to myself, man, that's the way uh uh the next generation, you know, gets a chance to figure out if they like a sport or not. They play it on a video game and see if they like it.

Growing Up In A German Church

J.D. Pearring 3:39

There you go. Well, uh, I hope I hope you can maneuver living in Edmonton and not being a gigantic boilers backer. So hey, let's start with uh beginning. Tell us how you came to Christ growing up.

Harry Kelm 3:54

Yeah, I was uh I'm actually uh the middle son of uh immigrants. Um my mom and dad came from uh Germany in the um later 50s, and uh all of us boys were born uh in uh there's three of us in uh the United States. Uh I was born in Wisconsin, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. They had gone through all that stuff with World War II, and they were wanting to come to North America to start over, lost a lot of family members. Um, and so they chose Milwaukee because it was a German community, and uh and there was a German church there. And so that was a North American Baptist Conference church, and that's how their journey, and actually my journey with the North American Baptist Conference uh started. The church family was our family. I called the people unclear uncle and aunt. Um, and uh now granted, JD, I have to say that German was spoken in the in the in the worship services. Everything was in German. So we didn't see a lot of newcomers because uh it was pretty much just German, but I I felt very encouraged, very supported. Um, I had a big extended family, and that was that was my growing up. And it was when I was fairly young, I came to know Christ as my savior. And I have to admit, when I look back, it was it was primarily more of a of a sense that I wanted to be in. I wanted to be a part of of this family that I was growing up in. And um I understood that you know to be a Christian meant that Jesus saved me from my sins. And I knew that that was a good thing. So I wanted to be in, not out. And that's how I came to know Jesus. It was uh later on that I began to realize that I needed to do more than just belong to Jesus and have Jesus belong to me. I needed to begin to build a life that Jesus lived in and through. And so that began a journey of of discovery. Um, I have to admit, in those earlier years, it was still a lot of um oughtness. You ought to do this, you ought to do that, that. Um, it was my later high school years that I I all of a sudden came to this realization that God loves me. And that that that I have an opportunity of having a love relationship with God. And uh and that really began to turn things around uh for me. I was never a bad kid, but you know, just did the did the things I needed to do to get by. And it was at that point that I began to feel that stirring in my heart that I wanted to serve him, um, and uh I wanted to do what he wanted me to do, but not because I ought to, but because I loved him and he loved me. So that was that um that love relationship that has you know just continued to be a key factor in my life.

J.D. Pearring 7:10

Wow. That um did so. Did you continue in a German-speaking church like up through high school?

Harry Kelm 7:16

Or yeah, I I I think that uh what often happens in in um very ethno language churches um is they hired a uh a youth worker that was English. Eventually, like Sunday school classes became English. The main service was still still German, and then um, and then there was a switch over. It is no longer right now. So I'm 66, so we're talking a few years back. Um, it's no longer German today, but that is definitely uh the roots. You still have Bruno and Siegfried and Hilda and all those folks in that church.

Sensing A Call To Ministry

J.D. Pearring 8:01

Amazing, amazing. So uh was there a call to ministry somewhere in there?

Harry Kelm 8:07

Yeah, I I I think that when I got to my later high school years, I began to think, what do I what do I want to do with my life? And uh I I loved math, I loved sciences, I didn't care much for English. Um, had a bit of a speech impediment that that was kind of always sort of there. Um and so I I thought, you know, I'm for a year, I'm gonna go to Bible school. And so I went to a Bible school for a year, and uh one year went to two years, went to three years, went to four years. And in those years, I I felt very much affirmed by this community of faith that I was around. And I began to sense the Lord telling me that he wanted me to not go into sciences, but to go into ministry, and I was JD, I was flabbergasted. Like I could tell God all kinds of reasons why Harry Celm should not go into full-time ministry. I mean, it's just you know, I could list them and and yet God was persistent. I mean, he he kept giving me opportunities to to serve, he gave me people that came around me and encouraged me. Um, and so through those four years, I began to realize through missions trips, through camp, you know, leading camp programs, that God uh had some plan for me that included um me being in ministry and vocationally in ministry. So went to seminary and where did you go to seminary? I went to Bethel Seminary in Minneapolis. Um it was not our our conference school. Uh our conference school was in Sioux Falls, but it was closer to home. It was closer to Milwaukee, and uh there were some health problems in my my family of origin. I just needed, I felt like I needed to be closer in case I needed to get home uh for some reason. So that's that's what happened. And in at Bethel, uh there's a cornerstone. Um, and it's Isaiah uh 6, 8. Who whom shall we send? Who'll go for us? And Isaiah says, Here I am, send me. And when I first visited, I just stopped there and I thought, oh boy, here goes, here I am, send me. And that's that's how it started. Uh there was no big um explosion of any sort. It was just God continuing to to move me in a certain direction, nudging and consistently persistent. Uh and uh and I that's that's how I ended up in ministry.

J.D. Pearring 10:48

Well, I know that's a solid school, and it sounds like you were you were being nudged, but you were taking the steps.

Harry Kelm 10:57

Yeah, I I I feel I I feel very humbled by that because I still do not see myself as someone that um sh should be or you know, uh the should could would stuff. But it's all about God. I mean, what what God when God calls, God always equips. And I feel like if the God would never lead me to a place where he wouldn't provide for me. And so that's been kind of my uh my thing, that uh if if God wants me to do something, I'm willing to do it because I love him and I know he loves me, um, and he's gonna provide for me. And that's been the case.

J.D. Pearring 11:41

Well, well, that's uh great testimony there. Uh so you graduate from uh seminary. What was your first ministry placement situation?

Harry Kelm 11:50

Yeah, Hutchinson, Minnesota, Minnesota, straight west of the Twin Cities, about oh, it would be about an hour to an hour and a half. And uh I was uh the pastor of a of a church of about 40, 45 people, uh, lived in the parsonage across the street, found out later that they were wondering if they should close their doors, and they thought, well, you know what, let's give this guy a chance. You know, he's he's young, we don't have to pay him much. But were you married? Were you married at the time? Yeah, I got married in my last year in seminary, and uh so Cindy, uh, my wife and I, we we headed there, and ironically, this church was the first church of my father-in-law. My father-in-law's a pastor in the North American Baptist Conference, and so my wife lived in the same house as a little girl that she lived as as the pastor's wife. No way, yeah, yeah. And it's uh in the NA in the NAB, the North American Baptist Conference, you're constantly finding out, like there's all these intersections of, oh, that's your uncle? Oh, that's my cousin, you know, that kind of stuff.

J.D. Pearring 13:03

How how was that for her moving back to her childhood home?

Harry Kelm 13:07

Well, she she told me early on when we were uh dating that there's no way that she wanted to marry a pastor, and so uh uh it was it's been part of the journey for her too. But she's um she's always been my greatest supporter, and uh she's always been kind of the wind in my sails. Um we we made this decision that um that her her call was to be me my partner and I was her partner, and uh so she didn't feel the need to necessarily play the organ or or you know do you know the kind of the the pastor wife things. Uh she was um there to support me and and and I always felt that.

J.D. Pearring 13:54

Well, walk us through uh what happened to you in Hutchinson, Minnesota, then what?

Harry Kelm 13:59

Yeah, uh we were there eight years, then we went to Sioux Falls, South Dakota, where uh I took a uh a church there in Sioux Falls, and um our the our conferences seminary is there, and so started my D Min and uh and got my D Min while I was in Sioux Falls, so I got my doctor of ministry there, and there too. Um, you know, God just continued to show up. Uh that there was my first experience of having staff and having, you know, hiring staff and and working with staff. And uh, you know, those are the worship wars years, so we had some of that going on, but those folks, I God has just blessed us with churches that have been so supportive of us and very much have um have fed into us, and that was you know, Sioux Falls was a uh a great place too, you know, and our our family kept growing during this time. So those are the years of uh having kids and uh and enjoying what it meant to have toddlers running around the house. How many kids? We have three. We have uh our oldest uh daughter lives in uh Madison, Wisconsin. Uh our son uh and his family lives here in Edmonton, and our youngest daughter and her family live in San Diego. So we're kind of spread out. Uh yeah, and and that's you know, when I was going into ministry, that was sort of the the thing to expect. That that was sort of what happens in ministry. You you go from one place to another. It's uh it's still the case sometimes, but maybe a little less so uh today. Uh there's more uh desire to be kind of in a in a location. Uh and yeah, so it was just what I expected.

J.D. Pearring 15:55

What happened after Sioux Falls?

Harry Kelm 15:58

Yeah, I went to went to Vancouver, Washington, uh suburb uh of Portland. And uh we used to say uh Vancouver, not BC, Washington, not DC. That was the big saying there. You know, um we were there, brought, you know, took our family and moved it all the way across the country. Uh up to then we'd been primarily in the Midwest, and uh now we were on more on the West Coast. And JD was it, I I learned a lot of things in Vancouver, primarily in the in the genre of uh maybe you shouldn't have done that, if you know what I you know, and uh that's my that's my entire life. Well, and and God continues to work, but uh you know, the intention that I had was, you know, this is gonna be, I'm gonna be here 25, 30 years, and it was five years. And it was, it was, it was um uh I learned a lot. Uh and I hope the church learned also things, but uh, but God needed to teach me some lessons more about more about trusting in him and uh and trusting more in him than in my own uh efforts. I had I had I had two churches under my belt at that point, and I kind of kind of thought I knew what I was doing, you know. And I I think I might have even been able to say, hey, you know, I can I can pretty much minister in any context, you know, I can I can figure it out. And uh I was uh you know, the God God needed to knock me down a couple of couple of points.

J.D. Pearring 17:39

Yeah, if you want to get knocked down a little bit, come to the West Coast, uh north, I would say north of Fresno, all the way up, you're gonna learn some things you never realized were uh actually happening in the world.

Harry Kelm 17:55

So and I still appreciate some of those things I learned that there. And uh, I mean, so those are those are life lessons. Uh we moved from there to Calgary, Alberta, which is you know, you not only move churches, you move countries. And so that was our our uh ministry uh there. And I I can say that um Grace Baptist and Calgary, they had gone through some difficult times uh and they were hurting. I kind of was hurting, and what happened is God brought us together and we healed, we healed together, and so it was 15 years of just a blessing to be there, and uh once again uh God continue to provide. And uh, so that was our last ministry. So altogether 37 years in pastoral ministry.

J.D. Pearring 18:49

Wow, that's incredible faithfulness. And now you're uh is is your title president? Is it supreme leader or what is it? Um it it's executive director, executive director of the NAB.

Harry Kelm 19:05

Yeah.

J.D. Pearring 19:06

Um tell us number one, tell us how in the world you get that job, and uh just give us a quick bit on the NAB and your vision.

Harry Kelm 19:17

Yeah. Um well the the the former executive director resigned. Uh I had been involved in various leadership places in the North American Baptist Conference leadership uh over the years. Um and I had just I just served as kind of the chair of the board, and uh there's a position on the board that's the past chair that you sit on there for another three years after you've been chair, so that you provide some continuity and and support. Um it was when I was past chair that the the former executive director resigned and uh helped them in the transition. And uh during those times, um I uh I was asked by a number of people, hey, are you gonna put your name in? And I said, No, no, are you are you kidding me? Um, I said, first of all, the the NAB doesn't want to have uh a guy that's wife just left him. And they and they went, what? And I said, that's what would happen if my wife found out I would I'd do that. And I was on the phone and I said that once, and it was during COVID. So you were spending a lot of time on phones and Zooms, and um my Cindy said to me, I just heard what you said. Um have you ever asked me what I thought? And I said, No, I I I guess I didn't. And she said, Well, why don't you ask me and let me pray about it, and then I'll tell you. And so I did. And she came back and said, I I feel like you have that that God is at least giving me the feeling that you should apply. And so I did. Um, but JD, it's one of those things where you apply and you keep thinking, okay, you know, I'm gonna apply. You know, a lot of people like me. I'm I've been a I've been a kind of a loyal NAB or they're gonna at least let me get through the first round. They don't want to hurt my feelings, you know. But so every Zoom call I had, I was sort of expecting that it would be a, you know, it's been great. Yeah. Uh and then it was this kind of shock that they actually thought that God was leading them to me. Um JD, I love the church. I I just have I have a love for the church. I love the church I was in. Um, and so I thought to myself, really? Like, is this uh is this really? Really from from you, uh Lord. Um, but I was involved in setting up this this whole this process. I was in, I knew, I knew this search committee. I knew that they were good people and godly people and that they had been praying and and you know, I so it's this uh idea of I I believed in the process. I believed that God was in the process. And so uh here I go, me saying, Here I am, Lord, send me. It was it was that same same feeling of uh for for this time uh this time God has something that He wants to do through me, He wants to do something in me. Um, and so it's been five years now since that moment. And um yeah, it's been How's it been?

J.D. Pearring 22:52

How's the five years been?

Harry Kelm 22:55

It has been, I I have really appreciated seeing uh God working uh at at the church level, but also at at the level of of groups of churches working together. And uh I have um I have loved seeing um the church planters of the North American Baptist Conference. Um I I have to tell you, JD, when I first started, one of the first things I went to was uh this gathering of of church planters, and I was like, uh, you know, see how that goes. You know, I I you know sometimes uh the church planters have a bit of a rap reputation of being a little bit wild and and uh you know um yeah, just just a little bit off center a little bit. Off center. And and I have to tell you, I was so well accepted, I was so well loved, um that I thought to myself, praise God, like I I I am willing to be wrong about this, because they they they uh reached out to me, they they they loved on me, they got to know me. And uh that's been my experience with with church planters, with missionaries, with those folks that you know are kind of at that place where they're being supported by churches. Um and uh, you know, I had as a pastor a chance to be involved in in some church planting uh efforts and um and also in supporting missionaries, but it gave me a chance to see God at work. At the same time, it's been a tough five years. There's the post-COVID, there's been lots of, you know, almost uh almost a hostility and antagonism that is really close to the surface. And uh, and I I think um oftentimes uh people will want to find someone to kind of take or to to to be frustrated against because there's lots of frustrations in life today, and it it happens to be kind of the um the groups that maybe churches are a part of. And uh so have I had to deal with a lot of different conflict and different situations like that, much more so than I thought I would. But uh God has continued to say to me that he wants me to keep doing what I'm doing, and uh so I'm still at it.

J.D. Pearring 25:32

Well, well, I would say that uh being accepted by the church planters and that environment has a lot to do with Stu Streeter and just he brings to the table. So proud of Stu and um just love him and what he's doing with the church planters. So wanted a little plug there for Stu. Oh, yeah. Stu, if you're listening to this, uh you you gotta buy lunch next time. But you know, when you're the executive director, that's like the complaint department, right? I mean, isn't that the because people can't get mad at you know that there's a lot of people they can't get mad that they are mad at, but they can't really vent on them. So where do they look? And pastors can look at, oh, well, there's Harry. He should he should have all this fixed, you know.

Harry Kelm 26:28

Yeah. And and and thanks for that shout out for Stu. I I have such an incredible executive team that I work with. It's um yeah, that they're a blessing, Stu has been nothing but encouraging to me. Um, and and I'm seeing God's movement. So, so that's the that's the you know, the flip side of of some of that uh conflict resolution stuff. Uh God continues to work, and I'm I'm just so thankful to be a part of it.

J.D. Pearring 26:57

Well, uh tell us what is the NAB, where it came from, and just a quick bit about your vision for maybe the next five.

NAB Roots And Church Planting Vision

Harry Kelm 27:07

Yeah. The North American Baptist Conference used to be known as the German Baptist Conference. Uh it was uh 1851 was when it started. Uh you had these these waves of German immigrants coming from Europe after the wars, uh, World War I and II. And uh they were looking for people that they could communicate with, and they they found other Germans and they came together, and uh, and it was uh that kind of community connection. Uh, and there was a kind of a branch that went up through Canada, branch that went down to uh to the United States, hence we're binational. We have been binational, we are binational, and uh we're hoping to stay binational. Uh we uh we believe that um not necessarily being in just one country continues to emphasize the fact that we are citizens of God's kingdom. We happen to live in uh United States or Canada, but but we're called to uh be a people of God. And uh and so that's the that's the beauty of uh of the NAB. From its very beginning, the NAB was brought together for fellowship, community, and ministry. Um, they decided very early to not be a denomination, to call themselves a conference, because it was going to be a gathering of equals. So the the sense of you know, our our German forefathers came from the old country where there was there was a lot of stratification of churches and who was that what was the state church. And so uh they really wanted to make sure that there was that sense of not um elitism. And so that that's a part we we we have always sought to reach out to our neighborhoods. We've sought to um to be a a conference that that raises up leaders, sends missionaries, plants churches, and that's still what we do. That's those are the still the passions that uh that fuel us as a conference of churches. 400. 400 in Canada, in the United States, one-third in Canada, two-thirds in the United States.

J.D. Pearring 29:22

Okay, great. So you're on the road a lot.

Harry Kelm 29:26

Yeah, and and we we serve virtually, so our whole executive team uh is virtual. Uh we uh we get together three times a year, but we see each other at events and uh yeah, do a lot of do a fair bit of traveling.

J.D. Pearring 29:42

Wonderful. Well, thanks for what you're doing there. Um in many, you know, in many ways, it's it's not the most uh Pluto-filled deal when you're the executive director and you're trying to herd the the church planting cats as well as everything else that's going on. But I appreciate what you're doing. I appreciate your emphasis with Stu on church planting as well. That's a big deal.

Harry Kelm 30:09

And and I believe that that God is um God is planting within uh a lot of folks this desire to be sending churches and to be planting churches, to be revitalizing churches. Uh, I think that's the focus as I look down the road that uh we're gonna continue to see churches that uh have a passion for um having plants come out of them, uh and uh, but also the potential of um uh ethnic works, like uh languages that are spoken. The diaspora that is happening all over the world is also happening in North America, where you have um folks coming from various countries and they are they're planting churches or going to churches and being planted out of churches as a separate church. So I see a lot of movement that continues to happen in this this um the planting of churches, but also this idea of of connecting with your neighbor, connecting with uh the community that you're in and having a difference. When you think about JD, when I get you know, like I started in a German church where I could probably count on one hand in 20 years or 18 years, how many visitors there were. Because why would you go to a German church if you didn't speak German? Um and and yet the movement of the North American Baptist Conference is this idea of we believe God is on mission in our community and we want to join him there, whether it's in multiplying ministries or multiplying churches. We we really believe that God is at work in having us make a difference in the people that are around us. So yeah.

Walking The Way Of Jesus

J.D. Pearring 32:02

Wonderful, wonderful. Hey, well, you've been doing this a while. Give us a leadership uh lesson, leadership tip.

Harry Kelm 32:09

Well, you know, I said earlier I'm I'm I'm 66. So I mean, I I don't think it's negative to say uh I have more past than I have future. Uh, but I also believe it ain't over till it's over. And uh uh God meets me each day and says, come follow me, come this way. Um I think that the leadership lesson that that that I uh sense is something important for people to consider is that in this in this environment today of uh a bit more hostility and antagonism, uh so often we want to um we want to decide when it comes to people around us who we are meeting. Uh who are you? Are you one of us or are you one of them? And and we make these these um these judgments, and so often the judgment then leads to a certain behavior, a certain viewpoint, a certain way of treating someone. And I think that I would just want to challenge people to say, are you on God's side? That's the one side that I want to be on. It's God's side and Jesus. I want to love God with all of my heart, soul, mind, and strength. And I want to love my neighbor as myself. I think that's the way of Jesus. And I I think that uh for me, uh, when I've when I've ventured out in leadership, the question I have always asked myself is Am I walking the way of Jesus? Is what I am saying, is what I am doing uh something that that follows with who Jesus is and how Jesus has has impacted my life. Uh I I think the danger today is that we can run to a position or even um run to sort of uh this this sense of let's just get it, let's just get her done. Uh let's let's do it in any way possible. And I think there's there needs to be a higher standard for us as believers. We need to do the way of Jesus. We need to walk the way of Jesus. And we need to to love God and and and love others. Um I uh I have this little story that uh that just uh just a few weeks ago uh I was greeting at my church. Every once in a while I get to be a greeter, isn't that the greatest? Uh and and a little boy had attached himself to me. I I knew his family, but not real well. And they asked me, is it okay if he stands at the door and and greets with you? And I said, sure, you know, so people were coming in and they were greeting us, and they loved the little guy that was next to me, and and they would greet him especially. And um, at one point he turned to me and he said with this smile on his face, people really like me here. And I thought to myself, wow, you know, that's the message that this that we have a place, and it might not necessarily be tied to a building, but we have an offer and opportunity for someone to know the love of God and Jesus, that God really likes them, and that that God wants what is best for them. And so that's I think just to encourage people to say, just keep on, just keep on. It's it's there's some tough stuff, but keep loving God, keep loving people, and make sure that that we continue to stay on the side that brings life change and transformation. That's that's for me. That's what I got, man.

J.D. Pearring 35:58

That's that's a great word, a great lesson. And from what I know uh about you, Harry, is that people really like you. Even if they're giving you a hard time, uh, they really like you here.

Harry Kelm 36:13

So I appreciate it. And uh yeah, I I I'm humbled by that. I that's um yeah, thank you.

J.D. Pearring 36:23

There's a there's a passage in uh Acts 11. Um I believe it's I believe it's and no, it's not Acts 11, it's Acts 8, after the Philip stuff, uh where it just says that uh the disciples were meeting together. And even though they were, I think this is the New Living Translation, it says something along the lines that even though they were a little bit in awe of these believers, the people really liked them. Um and I think there's something about that sometimes we think as Christians, you know, we got to make sure people don't like it. Um I'm not sure that's the that's the goal. There's enough stuff not to like. So yeah, keep up the keep keep that up, keep being likable. Uh I'm praying for you uh regularly, which is such a privilege for Excel to be partners with NAB, and we really appreciate you, really appreciate you telling your story today.

Harry Kelm 37:28

Thanks for having me, JD. You're you're doing an incredible work, uh, and it's it's a work that hasn't just started. You've been at this a while and you have made a difference. And uh Excel has made a difference. So we're we're we praise God for you. Thanks so much.

Announcer 37:45

Thanks for joining the Leading Conversations Podcast. We hope that you found it both helpful and encouraging. At Excel Leadership Network, our focus is on the church planter rather than the church. If you'd like to find out more about us, visit our webpage at Excelnetwork.org. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss any future episodes. See you next time with another leading conversation.