Classic Episode Welcome

Announcer 0:01

Welcome to A Leaning Conversations Classic Podcast. We've searched through our early episodes to find some of the best just for you. If you've been with us from the beginning, you may have heard some of these. If you haven't, enjoy this classic episode. Welcome to the Leading Conversations Podcast, sponsored by the Excel Leadership Network. On each episode, JD Pering will have conversations with church planting pastors and leaders from around the country. You can learn more about how to connect with Excel at the end of this podcast. Let's join JD now and listen in on this leading conversation.

Meeting Tom Mercer

J.D. Pearring 0:45

Welcome to another Leading Conversations Podcast. Today we are so excited to have the great Tom Mercer with us. Tom, thanks for being here.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

The average Tom Mercer is very happy to be with you. So thanks for the uh thanks for the nice comment there, JD.

J.D. Pearring 1:02

You are well above average. Uh are you in Victorville as we speak?

SPEAKER_01 1:08

I'm not. Just uh 17 miles away from the Victorville campus of High Desert Church. Uh is where we live. Uh little little outside of town.

J.D. Pearring 1:17

What's the what's the town called?

SPEAKER_01 1:19

What's the exact Oak Hills? Oak Hills? Yeah, right at the top of the Cajon Pass. Oh, cool. Yeah. I don't think I've seen it. It is cool. It's cooler than Victorville here. We have a little higher elevation than Victorville. Oh wow. What's the elevation? Uh about 4,000 feet. Wow. Great. Well, thanks for being with us. It's snowing outside, GD, as we uh as we speak. Just totally. You get snow, right? We do, yeah. But and and sometimes it'll last a day or two, but generally we'll get snow and it'll be gone within a few hours after the snowfall. But anyway.

A Childhood Conversion And Calling

J.D. Pearring 2:01

So you get snow, or and then get in the car and you drive a couple hours and you're at the beach. That's that's true. Yeah. Well, hey, tell us your story. Tell us uh growing up, how you came to Christ, all of that.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Well, I I was born in uh into a ministry family. Uh my dad uh was called to ministry um as a young man. He was a basketball player and a basketball coach. Uh and the Lord led him to Biola College, then Biola College. And uh he and my mom uh just raised me and my sister very well with a lot of love and uh a love for Jesus. I received Christ at the age of seven. Um, it's kind of a weird story. My dad was an associate pastor at the church uh we attended at the time, so he wasn't the teacher on the weekends, and it was a traditional Sunday night service that the pastor never forget his name, Joe Hemphill at uh St. Gabriel Union Church was preaching on hell. And I uh for whatever reason, at the age of seven, generally didn't listen, but for some reason I listened as the Spirit of God began to open up my heart to the recognition uh that Jesus was the uh the savior of the world. And uh boy, hell uh hell was something that that Pastor Joe brought really alive that night, and it kind of scared me, kind of an understatement. It terrified me. And so I I remember actually remember this. I remember uh just leaning into my mom that evening and saying, I want to accept Jesus into my heart. And so the next morning um my dad and I got up and he you know wanted to make sure I I knew what I was doing, and um and so I prayed to receive Christ April 7th, 1962. And uh yeah, and so I just I grew up in a ministry family, got to have a front row seat to uh watch what ministry was all about.

What Healthy Ministry Parenting Looks Like

J.D. Pearring 4:14

Well, if you grew up in a ministry family, tell us uh one or two things your parents did well. A lot of ministry families, listen to those podcasts. Uh, any tips you have, anything that you can say, hey, my folks really did this, did a great job on this.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Yeah, my my folks uh prioritized uh my sister and I and our lives and our interests. I remember I was a kid who enjoyed playing basketball. I was a couple of years younger than the kids in my grade. And so I was underdeveloped for that game at every level. So I never had any success. I mean, I my talent level was probably not going to give me great success anyway, but um, but I the point is in high school on all these teams, these basketball teams I played on, I I never played, I mean hardly ever gotten a game. I went to college when I was 16, so I was starting high school at 12, and you know, I I just wasn't physically able to compete. The older I got, everybody else was uh growing and developing, also. So uh all through my basketball career, I sat on the pine, but my dad never missed a game, always encouraged me. He was a basketball guy, he was a very successful basketball player in his day, and so uh it would have been easy for him to have been disappointed in uh the lack of performance of his only son, but uh he never did. He just loved me, always showed up. My mom didn't work outside the home, which I always appreciated. Um, I know everybody um is is not uh capable of managing that, but whenever possible, I think it can make a huge difference in the lives of uh children. Uh just knowing where mom was and knowing the mom was always accessible in my in my mind. I just had a visual image every day when I went to school where my mom was, and that brought me great security. And uh yeah, I I grew up with great parents, loved um my sis and I, and uh, you know, didn't do everything uh perfectly uh any more than Cheryl and I have done perfectly in raising our three, but uh they did a pretty good job. Did did you skip a grade or two? Yeah. Well, I stuck I would when I started, I was a little early getting in anyway, and then I skipped a grade in elementary school. I was on some kind of a test program they had to accelerate some kids through the system. And um, so yeah, the short answer is yes.

J.D. Pearring 6:55

Yeah, I tried to skip like eight of them, uh, but they they kept sending me back.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

Yeah, you know, skipping a grade is different than skipping school, JD. So uh yeah, that's a strategy that probably won't pay off for you.

J.D. Pearring 7:08

I will say my dad skipped a grade, uh, and he really did not like the fact that he didn't develop as a football guy, and he didn't grow to his senior year in high school, so he did not let us kids do that. Not that uh that was on the docket, but uh so you grew up, you uh Christian family. How did ministry come into your life?

Walking Away From Seminary In Anger

A Business Mentor Calls Him Back

SPEAKER_01 7:35

Uh you know, it's it's funny. I I was even at a fairly early age, I was involved with a youth group and in different ministry opportunities with them, and I had several, you know, pretty good guys kind of pull me aside and say, the Lord may have a call on your life for ministry. And so in the back of my mind, I always kind of felt like that was the trajectory I was on to become a pastor, like my dad. Um, but then uh I was at, you know, I went to Biola and I graduated from Biola and attended Talbot. I was in my third semester of seminary in the MDIB program there, and uh I just loved it. Um I was enjoying school very much, but the church where my dad was a pastor, uh I felt, and I'm no one's judge, but at that point in my life, I felt like I was adequate to judge. And so I I uh I saw the way my dad was treated by people in leadership um who had benefited so much from my dad's ministry. My dad had, you know, done a great, my dad was the consummate shepherd when it came to being a pastor. And so uh they had benefited, their kids had benefited from his mentorship and his counsel. And then I I don't know. Uh, you know, even my memory is not all that great. But I one thing I do remember it wasn't fair how they treated him, and it was pretty ugly. I mean, honestly. Uh so I just I just quit. I quit, uh it was during finals week. I left 18 graduate units on the table at Talbot and uh walked away. I said, Lord, you can you can have the church. I'm still thankful I'm a Christian, but this is not a business I'm gonna get into. If this is the way godly caring pastor people are treated, I've I've had enough. Uh, I've seen enough. And uh I heard a guy say one time, if uh you can be happy doing anything else, don't go into ministry. And at that point in my life, I certainly believed I would be happy doing anything else. But the thing that I felt was probably a pretty good option was marketing. And uh I had a friend who owned an agency, he was very kind to me. We went to uh uh we went to work together, or he hired me for his firm. Uh, he vested in me. Um, and then after about a year or so, he said to me, he said, uh, what do you do after work? And I said, Well, I go up to you know the church I was attending at that point, and I was working with some of the young people at that church, and I I go up to the church and I put together some programs for these kids that I work with. And he said, Do they pay you for that? And I said, No, they don't pay me anything. And I and he said, he's a very wise Christian man. He said, Now, if if you worked for them, would you come here to the marketing agency and work for me after hours for free? And I laughed and I said, Probably not. And he said, Tom, then what are you doing here? And I still get emotional reflecting on that conversation. Uh and uh I was crying, he was crying, and the Lord uh kind of re um called me. Uh recall, I was recalled, and he told me, uh, you know, I know the church is full of people that are are not Christ-like, uh, but you're not serving them, you're serving me. So get your butt back in the game. And uh I did. So that's how we got back uh on the path to vocational ministry.

J.D. Pearring 11:34

That's an uh that's a such a crazy story. You you left 18 units on the table.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

Yeah, you know, it's funny. Um one of the professors is just a few years ago, they asked me to speak at Talbot and uh for their one of their events, and and one of the professors that I just didn't show up. I just quit and uh walked away. You know, those units today would be extremely valuable. Uh and I had A's and B's in all of those classes. If I just take the final, but the professor, one of the professors, Dr. Robert Socy, uh, he was my uh church, it was the theology of the church class. And he was actually, when I spoke, he was sitting in the front row when I recognized him. He was much older, obviously. And I recognized him was last year he was a professor at Talbot. And so, right in the middle of my talk, I I I just joked. I said, Hey, I was wondering if I take that final now. And I don't even know if he got the joke, but anyway, it was uh yeah, it was it was a stupid thing to do.

J.D. Pearring 12:39

Uh I I won't, I don't know. I'm not sure it was, but let me ask this. Uh, you mentioned as even as a kid, some people saying you ought to look into ministry, and even this uh business guy you were working for, uh, is it just me? Or I don't see that happening that much anymore. I don't uh are we just missing it. I don't see that many older Christian leaders going up to young people and saying, hey, you need to look into ministry. There's a call on your life. Um, and thinking of a businessman saying, Get your butt back in the game. Yeah. Uh but it's it uh seems to me we really need a lot more of that. But have we lost that?

Living Worthy Of The Gospel

SPEAKER_01 13:27

I I don't know if we've lost it. I think you know God tends to get his way. I I remember even having a conversation with the Lord at that point, and and I said, and you and I may have talked about this in the past, I said to the Lord at that time, okay, if I'm gonna get back into this ministry, vocational ministry, get back on that path, uh, then I'm not gonna care what people think about me. Um, because my dad being the shepherd that he was, uh, he did have a heart that was broken over their behavior and how they treated him. And so I told the Lord, and I don't recommend this as a strategy ever in terms of negotiating with God. And whenever we try, it's like God says, okay, um, but he's gonna get his way anyway. God, I believe, JD, then and now, God will use somebody somehow, somewhere, to get his point across. And he happened to use a gym in my life as a business individual and uh business leader. Uh, and you know, he was he was great. I mean, I'm I'm very thankful. And not only that, but at his marketing agency, I learned, and I can see God's hand. I'm not sure that I my hardened heart did uh didn't make it more difficult to get where God wanted me to be. But I would say I learned a lot that year in terms of marketing uh products. And the gospel is not something that um, you know, we just market like we do a car, but the gospel is something that we are called to represent well. Um, you know, it's it's almost like conduct yourselves, as Paul writes, uh, conduct yourselves no matter what happens. I think it's Philippians chapter one. No matter what happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel. And so as we live our lives, we are very careful to market the gospel by the way we reflect it in our daily lives. And I, you know, my team, I don't know. We've talked about who we follow, and uh uh my college football team is a use is the UCLA team. They lost on the weekend, so that was kind of sad. But anyway, uh they're God's team too. So yes, thank you. But anyway, I I hope. But but every coach, and I was just talking to my son a couple days ago, every coach's job is to put the best product on the field because people are watching the game, and that's the point. It's there for the enjoyment of the team and the enjoyment of the fans, and and I I liken that to the gospel. It's my job as a pastor for all these years to help people become a better representation of Christ, you know. Paul, uh, if you wrote the book of Hebrews, which probably uh, well, anyway, that's a whole another Oprah. But um in the book of Hebrews, chapter 12, it says, without holiness, no one will see the Lord. And so if we have the gospel, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel, because without the way you conduct your lives in a holy manner, nobody sees Christ. Well, then uh as a pastor, I and I want to put the best product on the field, I want to grow these people up because the gospel is worthy of our Christian life disciplines to reflect to reflect Jesus. And you know, the Oikas principle talks about the front row and that eight to 15 people got a supernaturally and strategically placed in the front row of your life. They got the best seats in the house. They've been given tickets to the best seats in the house. They can hear what you say and watch how you live better than anyone. And 95% of the people who give their hearts to Christ give their hearts to Christ primarily because of a relationship with someone in that front row, those 8 to 15 people. And so, man, we're coaching people up all the time, trying to put the best product on the field so that people will see the Lord, so that they live their lives in a manner worthy of the gospel, because the gospel bottom line is that's all that matters anymore. Lost people need to become saved people, and uh, that's what we want to see happen. I I I get on a soapbox, bro, so you're gonna have to slow me down. Preach it, preach it.

Youth Ministry And The Oikos Discovery

J.D. Pearring 18:27

So uh back to your story. You you got back in the game, and what did that look like?

Moving To High Desert Church

SPEAKER_01 18:34

Well, I became a youth pastor. In fact, right after that, um, I got a call from a guy who's looking for a youth pastor who knew my dad. And so he asked, he said, Hey, can I talk to you? And I said, sure. And then I called my dad and I said, What's this guy want? And he said, Well, he it's a job interview. And I said, I've I'm not sure I want a job right now, um, because I don't know what I'm doing. And uh my dad said, Well, no, it's just a good experience. The interview is a good experience, and so this guy interviewed me for about a half hour and said, When can you start? And I said, Are you offering me a job right now? And he said, Yeah. And I said, You just met me. And he said, Well, you're Frank Mercerson, right? And I said, Yeah. He said, That's all I need to know. And I said, Okay. I don't know why I said, Okay, but we had that's the ministry where I learned the Oikas principle. And um, at a seminar I attended with my senior pastor, and so the Lord called us there, and we had a very fruitful ministry there in youth ministry. I would say primarily because of the application of the Oikas principle, but anyway, that's another question you might ask at some point. But uh, yeah, seven and a half years as the youth pastor there, and then I moved up to the high desert and I spent 38 years as a senior pastor at the high desert church. How did you get up there? Well, you know, Jack Hamilton, right? Right. Jack is the consummate networker, he uh was the administrator of a Christian school, and I should say everybody knows Jack Hamilton. That's true. Well, I did. My dad led him to Christ, and that's how I knew Jack. And so we we knew each other before either of us were in ministry, and so uh anyway, Jack calls me one day. I was in my office, my youth pastor office, and he knew Jack knew I was looking for uh maybe to become a uh lead pastor at some point, and he said there's a church up here, and one thing led to another, and so uh it was about a four-month process, and and I I became the pastor at High Desert, then High Desert Baptist Church. And so Jack um connected me with uh the leadership of the church, even though Jack did not attend that church, he did not attend High Desert Baptist Church. He attended the church where the school he was uh the administrator of this school, the spheric Christian school. And uh about nine months later, the church had about doubled in size. I mean, it was a hundred people to begin with. So I was starting to think about an associate, and I asked Jack if he had any ideas, and he said, What about me?

J.D. Pearring 21:26

Did he really?

SPEAKER_01 21:28

Yeah, and he says, I mean, what about you? I thought you enjoyed your uh leadership at the school. He said, They did, he and Linda did, but he thought that uh he might like to jump into a a local church pastoral role at some point, and uh and so I said done. I said, Yeah, let's do it. And so Jack arranged uh for me to get my job at High Desert Baptist Church. Jack arranged for himself to get a job at High Desert. Baptist Church. And you know the story of Jack because he's so unique. He's helped make connections for hundreds of people to uh be connected to the right church at the right time. And uh so he's he's quite a well, he's a great friend. He was he he became the exp, the executive pastor at the church. Now it's high desert church, he used to be and was founded as a Baptist church. And we were always very Baptistic. We just dropped the the B word out of the name. And um, and so he was the XP with me for 30 years, and then he um stepped aside from that role, and now he's he's um, as you know, he's coaching and encouraging outside of that role, pastors all over the place.

J.D. Pearring 22:48

He's still still connecting it. Uh how do you uh, and I know you had a team there, how do you keep a team together for 30 years?

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Well, yeah, it's the same dynamic as keeping a uh a church together for 30 years. You know, we just don't have arguments, there's no political infighting and no church splits. I mean, people come and go. It's not like everybody who attends loves it forever. But I I you know you've heard me say this in presentations I've I've made for Excel. Um you know, a charismatic leader, a charismatic leader, and I don't mean that theologically as much as just somebody who's very personal uh personality and very attractive, very um uh attractive personality and very gifted. Uh any gifted charismatic leader can fill a room, but only a common mission can unite the people in it. And so we got a lot of gifted people all over the place that are filling rooms, and then it it's fine. I mean, that's nothing wrong with that. We had a lot of full rooms too, but the unity of the church depends on the fact that the congregation generally rallies around, buys into and rallies around a common mission. And uh, I think that when you have a team that buys into a common mission, when a sufficient number of people who attend both understand and participate in the common mission, then the church stays together. I have often said, because we transitioned out 18 months ago, I've said so often before that event and since. Um there is there should never be a succession of mission. Uh, if there's no succession of mission between leaders, then pastors are plug and play. Uh we come and go. We we have uh we we walk into a ministry setting that was probably there before we arrived. And even uh if you're a church planner, the dynamics were there before you got there, they'll be there when you were gone. The mission should never change. Um, so don't mess around with the Great Commission, or else you you're gonna have divided churches. JD, Jesus gave us one thing to do between his advents. One. So there, you know, like when Paul wrote the Corinthians and he said, I want you to be completely united in mind and thought, he wasn't talking about politics, he wasn't talking about theological issues because we all have opinions. He was talking about the fact that we are all partners in the gospel, we have a common calling and a common mission. And um, that's framed by, you know, Matthew 28, that singular thing Jesus told us to be about. And uh it's just amazing to me how many churches have so much going on and so many programs and so many emphases and so many things that they've adopted as part of their formal um ministry that have nothing to do with the Great Commission. And you know, with the Oikas movement, uh, you know, our tagline is helping people align life to the Great Commission. That's what we want to do. Your life, my life. Neat that's the calling we've been given. We've been extended.

Launching The Oikos Movement After Transition

J.D. Pearring 26:20

Well, let's I I mean I just really appreciate your focus. Just you're you're the guy that keeps pushing that. Um, let's get back to the the main thing. Um, the OICOS movement, you talked about transitioning 18 months ago. So what are you doing now?

SPEAKER_01 26:39

Well, we have an organization, it's uh we have our own um nonprofit status with the state of California. Um, it's essentially right now, it's me and a great board of uh pastors and business leaders who uh believe in the OICOS principle, and we're available for coaching, we're available for training. You've been to or have seen many of our trainings on this idea. Um yeah, and if you go to oikastmovement.com, you can sign up. We'll send you content once in a while. I think every week it's either a blog post or uh an email. Got one this morning. Yeah, it's every Tuesday. Don't want to bother people. I know pastors are busy, but we just want to continue to drip and encourage guys to just sufficiently embed this idea into the fabric of a local church. The OICAS principle will absolutely refuse to allow a local church to become inward focused, it will not let you, and that's important over time, but the mission remains the main thing.

J.D. Pearring 27:53

Oh my goodness, if you can stop from being inward focused in whatever organization you have, um uh you'll you'll just see amazing things. How's it been? 18 months after what'd you say, 38 years? Um, how's the transition been for you personally?

SPEAKER_01 28:12

It's been good. You know, I got a great wife of 43 years and JD, you know, Cheryl. And uh we worked hard over the seasons of ministry to um to carve out a healthy relationship. It wasn't always easy, but I think we achieved a sufficient amount of balance between our family and our job so that when the job kind of changes or the job goes away, uh there's still purpose in life. And uh, of course, I still have a job. We're still, you know, executive director of this group that uh still keeps us busy in terms of teaching and training. But you know, if if it all went away, uh I think Cheryl and I and our three kids, they had great families, and we have 11 grandkids, and uh we really enjoy that side of life too.

J.D. Pearring 29:12

Um yeah, you you're just a a uh a hero to so many hero to me. You've done so well, family's great. I mean, the only thing I have you know questions about in your life is the fact you're a Dodger fan. Yeah, but that's that's that's probably just you're just smarter than me.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

Just conduct yourself in a manner worthy of the gospel, and you'll be a Dodger fan. That is not what my grandmother said. Who do the Angels get in the first round of the playoffs this year? That's what that's what I want to know.

J.D. Pearring 29:47

They get uh they get a fishing trip, uh long vacation. Um I'm I'm really yeah in the you know, honestly.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

You brought it up, bro. You brought it up.

Systems Beat Goals In Leadership

J.D. Pearring 29:57

Um it doesn't matter when this uh podcast airs either. It'll be the same answer. Okay, we'll leave it at that. Yes. Hey, um, give us a leadership tip or two, will you, Tom?

SPEAKER_01 30:13

Well, uh, yeah, I got a few. But I'm uh I I say that you know, I everything I say, JD, you know Tom is an acquired taste. I I and I I'm not a big conference speaker kind of guy. HDC loved me for a long time. They got used to me and they recognize my sense of humor, my matter-of-factness. And sometimes I speak so confidently about some things that people might come away feeling like there's a level of arrogance there. Honestly, I'm just trying to get through every day without looking stupid. And so I have this great um uh grateful heart to God that He wants to use me at any level. And if there's if there's anything I share, it's with great humility, and I could be wrong uh about so many things.

J.D. Pearring 31:05

I you you're you know, I I think you're wrong. You're very humble, other than the Dodger thing. You are thank you. You come off as a uh a guy that's not trying to prove anything, pretty humble.

SPEAKER_01 31:19

So well, thank you for that. But anyway, all that to say, I offer this one to you as well, humbly. Um and James Clear is the guy that said it. Um, and I don't even know his spiritual, you know, where where he is spiritually. He does not write as a Christian author, but so many of the principles that he proposes, it kind of like Jim Collins, they just relate so well to faith and and leadership and ministry. But one of the things he said that I I love is that you don't rise to the level of your goals, you fall to the level of your systems. And in church life, that is, you will never rise to the level of your vision, you will fall to the level of your structures, and everybody has, you know, every evangelical church kind of has the same vision state. We all want people to know Christ, to grow in Christ, uh, to know God and make Him known, you know. I mean, there's all these different iterations, but we all all essentially are about the same thing. That's our vision, those are our goals. Why don't more churches realize their goals? Because, as James Claire puts it, you don't rise to the level of your goals, you fall to the level of your systems, and that's why it's important maybe uh to understand the systems that allow the structures that allow a vision to flourish. And you've got some churches that have an inward uh vision, and they've structured their church to facilitate it. They have an inward structure, and that church is successful, although it's not following the Great Commission, it's successful because its structure facilitates its vision. So many churches have an outward vision, but their structures are inward, and that's where you you get a um kind of a pro you it's it's a problem because you'll you'll fall to your systems and your structures not rise to your goals. And the Oikas movement is about that outward vision that you have, those outward um vision goals that you have as a pastor for your church family. We would love to help you create systems that support your vision because when you think about it, um if your structures don't support your vision, your vision is worthless.

Why Vision Fails Without Structure

J.D. Pearring 34:11

Can can you give us just a quick example of a structure that pulls people inward? Well, it's it's not giving any names.

SPEAKER_01 34:21

Yeah, I yeah, it's uh I mean, even how you conduct a weekend event, a weekend worship event, how you train. I was talking to a guy yesterday in Pennsylvania. This is true. Yesterday in Pennsylvania, he attends, I think, the 11th largest church in Pennsylvania, came back from a day of um uh came back from church on Sunday, and the emphasis was it's important to share Christ with your friends. And that's a goal, that's a vision. Share Christ with your friends. He came home and he told his dad, Dad, they told me that I need to share Christ with my friends, I think the kids, the freshmen in high school. And it was very compelling, but they didn't tell me how. And they encouraged me to do something I really don't know what to do with. See, that's a perfect example of you don't rise to the level of your vision to share Christ with your friends. You fall to the level of your structures. How do you frame that up for a kid? And how do you frame that up for their parents? And you know where I would go if we had more time. The Oikas principle provides us a structure, it provides us a system, and uh that's why it uh it helps people get their head around what it means to share Jesus with people.

J.D. Pearring 35:44

It's great stuff. Um, and it's really helped not only our church, but me personally. So thanks, Tom. Boycost Movement.com. Tom. Yeah. And how do you spell boikas? O-I-K-O-S. Okay. Boycast Movement.com. Right. Hey, Tom, thanks for um thanks for being you. If you're an acquired taste, I I I paid for it. So thank you.

SPEAKER_01 36:10

I appreciate it. You're a good friend, J D, and I love what you and Excel are about, and we appreciate you so, so much. Look forward to uh seeing you in a few months.

J.D. Pearring 36:21

Yeah, yeah. Hey, thanks so much. Thanks for being here, Tom.

SPEAKER_01 36:24

Good being.

Announcer 36:25

Yeah, you too. Thanks for joining the Leading Conversations Podcast. We hope that you found it both helpful and encouraging. At Excel Leadership Network, our focus is on the church planter rather than the church. If you'd like to find out more about us, visit our webpage at Excelnetwork.org. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss any future episodes. See you next time with another leading conversation.