Announcer 0:06

Welcome to the Leading Conversations Podcast, sponsored by the Excel Leadership Network. On each episode, JD Perrin will have conversations with church planting pastors and leaders from around the country. You can learn more about how to connect with Excel at the end of this podcast. Let's join JD now and listen in on this leading conversation.

J.D. Pearring 0:30

Welcome to another edition of Leading Conversations with Excel Leadership Network. And today we are so happy to have back with us by Popular Demand. This is a a reprisal of what we did uh what a couple years ago. We have the great Peyton Jones here with us, the author, the uh church planter, the otherwise uh good guy. Peyton, thanks for being here.

Peyton Jones 0:57

Thanks, brother. Hey, it's so good to be here. I uh I'm I'm always happy to uh to be here with the XL family. Went through an assessment many moons ago in San Diego, enjoyed it, and uh you know, loved your wife and a lot of your team there, so it's always good to be here.

J.D. Pearring 1:16

Well, it's it's exciting for us. Um, you know, you have this new book out. We want to talk about that, but before we get there, you're planting a church or a network of churches in North County, San Diego right now. Is that what's happening?

Peyton Jones 1:29

Yeah, we're we're planting uh right now it's just the Abbey, Carlsbad. It's the hub, it's the early days. We've been in a building for six weeks now. Um, we're we're a little strange. Um we um we we we don't sit in rows, we sit in little small groups, little circles. It's kind of like we took the living rooms uh that we were meeting in and we were moving around. We were kind of a movable feast there for about a year and a half, two, too, close to two years, which I would never ever keep a core team that long. But with the book, I just kind of had to lift my hands up and say, sorry guys, uh, I can't I can't do anything. So we had a soft launch on Easter, that was great, had about maybe 60, you know, and then um and I'm a small launch guy, like I'm not a large launch guy, but we baptized 10 people um you know last year, uh, many of them unsaved. We just had someone come to faith on Easter, and uh, when we sit in those little groups, you know, we have um discussion, you know, like mixed in. So you're you're we we always say there's there's a three-part mantra that we say for us to have a really good Sunday, uh, only three things need to happen. Number one, we need to hear from God. Number two, God needs to hear from us, and number three, we need to hear from each other, and that's so the spiritual gifts and people can be discipled as we gather together and dig deep. And it's just working. Well, that sounds cool.

J.D. Pearring 3:01

That sounds really good. And you're in Carlsbad.

A Beach Town Planting Reality Check

Peyton Jones 3:03

We're in Carlsbad. Yeah, we meet. Uh now this is kind of weird, right? Like I I would have told people, you know, I planted on three continents. Uh when I came back home to America, I planted inner city Long Beach. Um, I planted in Europe. Um I I'll tell you what, it it the the beach community in Southern California to me is the most challenging. And um, what I did not realize was noon church hits like that is a 12 o'clock church. I I I was thinking this sucks, but the church that we're using uh actually said, Hey, you can meet here at noon, it'll be $300 a month. We're like, what? And I so we went from hey, that's a deal breaker to hey, we'll see you at noon. And uh, so it's $300 a month, and uh, and we're loving it. But what's cool is everybody is like hitting the golf course, people are surfing, and then they're coming in. And I I I would have thought everyone hated it. People are like, we love this, this is the best, and we we always serve food at church as well. So it's like if you're hungry, come on in. Um, we're sitting around coffee tables anyway, so there's food there, but uh, but it's going good. And Ralph and Ruby Moore are there, which is Yes, Ralph. Ralph and Ruby, what wonderful people. Yeah, I mean, uh the guy is such a legend, and he's just people don't know this, but but Ralph loves small, like he's not he'll tell you I never have to stand on a platform uh again a day in my life. I would rather just meet with a bunch of church planners, and uh and by the way, if any of your listeners, JD, are um just doing cool things on the ground, Ralph is always looking to interview just the everyday church planner. So if any of the Excel uh church planners out there want to hop on this podcast, just get in touch with me. Let me know.

J.D. Pearring 5:02

Oh, we'd love to do that. Ralph was the very first person on this podcast. First one. We loved to win. Really? Yep. It's been downhill ever since.

Peyton Jones 5:10

But I was gonna say, man, that that's a hard act to follow for every guest you've had.

J.D. Pearring 5:16

I will tell you, uh, when I hear Carl's band, I have these uh just a little twinge of regret. When we were first getting ready to plant, and this was 80s, again early 80s, uh the great Bob Logan came to me and says, I got three places for you to plant. Uh in the LA area, uh uh the area in Eastern LA. It was before it was called the Inland Empire. Back then, then it was called the Place Nobody Really Wants to Live. He said, three places all with 100 uh unhealthy smog days a year. So we went to Colorado Springs and planted our first church in Columbus Springs. And then about a year later, Bob came back and said, Well, there's two other places we're looking. One is Santee. There's not even a church there, but the other one isn't Carlsbad. And I'm like, Where were you a year ago? Carlsbad in a heartbeat. That's uh one of the best places. Um, so good for you.

Peyton Jones 6:13

You're a smart man. Well, we we've been blessed. You know, the the way I got here is we got off the field, and my mission board had a house here that they would just allow missionaries coming off the field to live. And uh just as they got on their feet, you know, it was super cheap. I think it was like $900 a month. And uh we were here for just about a year, and it was always understood it would be temporary. And they approached us and said, Hey, we're all retiring. Um, and we're going, but we're dissolving the trust. Um, would you guys like to buy it? And we, this is one of those things like you have to understand, I'm like 10 doors down from the beach. If you see my house, you will be like, This is not fair. But 10 doors down from the beach. Um, and I said, Yeah, of course. Who wouldn't oh double plot by the way? Oh, the second house on this street back when it was avocado trees, and um and I I don't remember what else it was, but it was mainly avocado trees. And they uh they said, Yeah, uh go to the bank, see what you can get. So we came back with some you know paper clips in our pocket, maybe an odd button, some pocket fuzz, and uh, you know, a laughable amount of money and said, Well, you know, missionaries back from the field, this is what we could get, this is what they'll loan us. They said, Sold the Lord wanted you to have the house. We just wanted you to give as much as you could, and uh, it's yours. And so this house has been God's gift to us all the years. That's and and during that time, we were asked to plant in Long Beach by my sending pastor. So we were making that drive and staying the night two nights a week, just kind of like we're getting that church off the ground and getting back here. So we never moved. So we've been here 16 years, but planted refuge Long Beach um living here. But this has been home. And Andrea, knowing me, has always said, Hey, you know, like when we first got here, we were getting ready to adopt baby number two. She was special needs out of a uh NICU. And uh my wife just looked at me and said, Hey, I know you, but would you mind not moving us uh for for quite a while, at least five years? And I just, you know, I mean, Paul says, right, gotta please your wife and the Lord. So I was like, Well, Lord, if she's asking, I think. So without hesitation, I was like, Yeah, yeah, we can find it.

The House Story And Staying Put

J.D. Pearring 8:36

That is that's fantastic. You know, that's what uh Jesus promised. You give up houses, he'll re you know, repay that with houses. Um, I don't think he said anything about 10 houses from the beach, but that's you're a you're a special, special family, and I'm just so excited for you that uh God has provided for that. That's such an incredible Nutocratic in Southern California church planting. The housing deal is like the biggest, you know, one of the biggest obstacles. Yeah. But I'm I'm glad you're doing that. And hey, I want to get into uh your books. We want to sell some books today. Hey, just just go on Amazon, buy all uh Peyton's books, and I was I was looking at your your list here. I didn't see the ninja book. Is it still no?

Peyton Jones 9:29

I took that one down. Oh man. I I wanted to flesh that out as a my the Ninja Church Planner, yeah. I might that might pop back up there in a in a in a full form because it was three chapters, and I would love to put another one up there someday.

J.D. Pearring 9:49

Okay, okay. So uh I was thinking, and I even you know I put in Ninja and I'm like, what's going on? But your book on Reaching the Unreach and uh the book that I did on um leading the other way on changing the church money in the world, those came out like I think in the same day. Yeah, that's that's how we got connected. But you wrote that one and you've got some other things, and then you wrote this uh this textbook, Church Plantology, that uh it might be the thickest book I've ever seen. It's like Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.

Peyton Jones 10:28

I mean, yeah, it it was my struggle indeed, but I will tell you this. Um, writing that book, uh it it you know, I I loved um planting the other way. I thought that was such a good book. So I don't know if you ever peeked in there, but you're quoted in there. I actually put that, I I had to honor that book in my book.

J.D. Pearring 10:50

Well, well, I appreciate that. Well, uh well, let's get to um you know, church pantology has been like the it's the textbook now. It's like, hey, read this. Um if if you can read this whole thing, you might be a church planter.

Peyton Jones 11:08

You, my son, might be a church planter.

J.D. Pearring 11:11

Yes. But tell us about the brand spankin' new uh discipology or discipology. How do you pronounce it?

Peyton Jones 11:21

Easy for you to say, yeah.

J.D. Pearring 11:23

How do you pronounce it?

Peyton Jones 11:24

Yeah, discipology.

J.D. Pearring 11:26

And it's disciplogy, yeah.

Why Disciplogy Exists

Peyton Jones 11:28

It's the art and science of making disciples, and and the same with church plantology. And the reason I make up those words is because you you know this. Like when you called your book Church Planting the Other Way, um you knew that it's kind of like uh Aigo Montoya, you keep using that word, I don't think it means what you think it means, right? Um, you and I both had kind of a passion for something different, a little more first century, um, something a little more honest. And you know, then the big flashy show. And I'm I'm not against large launches at all, don't get me wrong here, but um, it's just not 90% of the church planners out there. And so I wanted a term that was like, hey, the the scientific principles in the Bible, those those are the principles that all church planners need. I was looking for like a universal principle of that because everybody has their formulas, their models, but what are the things that all of us need and how can I reduce that down? And and when I was studying that book and doing the research for that, um you know, I was studying Paul in depth and I noticed he had a learning curve where each mission journey he kept improving. And not only did he improve, he he also failed on his first missionary journey. He planted a church, but it but you know, the church is in Galatia, but they went into heresy. And so Paul uh had to go back, I argued in that book, to uh in his second and third mission journey and relook at what Jesus did in order to sustain what he was doing. And so um and I I would argue this way that um what Jesus focused on was mobilization. What we have focused on is multiplication. Uh like we we've come out of the multiplication movement and thank God for it. Um I I'm really grateful for Exponential, all the church planning networks, Excel, um, new breed came out of that. Like, like we weren't wrong for doing that um at all. But I think for me personally, I had missed just like Paul, that I can't multiply churches if I'm not mobilizing the people within them. And I started to think, you know, other than when someone attaches their finances to to their church plant, then they say, Oh, my church plant failed. And you're like, no, dum-dum, your your personal finances failed, but you hitched them to the church. You have 40 people. Hey, that's enough to keep building. Let's go. You just need some training. But your church plant didn't fail, your finances hit. Well, the other thing was is church plants run out of steam. And that's because what they're doing is they're uh uh starting a Sunday service, and that's the main thing is just get people to come to that. And and the Sunday service is important, you should get people to come to that. But what if what if that was just a piece of it? What if there was more such as you know, Jesus uh taught those 12 disciples for three years how to mobilize, but if we mobilize with no church in sight, Jesus knew if I can uh train these 12 knuckleheads to mobilize on mission, then that multiplication will take care of itself. And so that became disciplogy. I I realized if Paul had to go back and relearn mobilization from Jesus, then I need to do that. And so I in my own quiet times I started reading a chronological gospel and I wanted to know what exactly did Jesus do like from day one, what was the first thing he did when he grabbed a disciple and how did he follow that through over those three years to finally be ready to release us? And I knew if I could if I could rediscover that, because I Lord knows we didn't need another book on discipleship. I mean, there's there's hundreds and hundreds of them out there, and thank God for that. Um but I I remember just telling Zonervan, I don't want to just write another book on disciple making or discipleship. I want to really show what Jesus did, highlight the principles of disciple making according to Jesus, and then the art, you know, the the the art and science of making disciples. Um, the art is the freedom we get within that. So so, like I like to tell people, there's a million right ways to make disciples. So this isn't a this is the way, this is Jesus' way. Learn the principles and then artistically have fun with that. Sure. And and so uh if there's a million right ways to do it, there's only one wrong way to make disciples, and that's not to right. So the book is not critical, it's more of a hey, this is what you could use in your disciple making.

J.D. Pearring 16:27

Well, I mean it it sounds weird. I have to admit, I have not read it yet. The disciples is not uh not as thick as a disology.

Peyton Jones 16:38

Or is it 430? Is it 430?

J.D. Pearring 16:40

I'm sorry, what I do is I set a goal of the number of books to read each year, and uh then I find the shortest possible books.

Peyton Jones 16:47

Well, I will say, I will say it's got um 200 maps, charts, and diagrams, and this those were not chat GPT generated. I I realize now when you start writing this book two years ago, you're like, man, you know, like now chat GPT just farts that stuff out, but we were building all of that stuff, so um well I know that you've been I mean you've spent your life the last several years writing these books.

J.D. Pearring 17:15

Now you mentioned multiplication. I stopped using that word uh a while ago just because I and I know it makes sense and I get the multiplication, and even you know, we do a lot going back to the parable of the sower of the 30, 60 and 100, but I don't think multiplication is the strategy. I think reproduction is the the strategy. That's the word I'm using more now. Uh sometimes multiplication just gets us hey uh it ends up, you know, we're an inch thick and uh you know a couple miles wide. But uh respond to that. Uh reproduction.

Mobilization Over Multiplication

Reproduction And Leadership Bottlenecks

Peyton Jones 18:00

No, I love that because that that really goes back to the heart of it, right? You know that the the bottle, the bottleneck, if I use the word multiplication here, the bottleneck is leadership development. So reproduction, like it really is about reproducing uh yourself, right? Like you can't, I remember when I planted out of any hub I've planted, because I've planted a few hubs now. Um, if I plant a hub and it's planting multiple churches out of itself, I send all my best leaders out. And then if I'm not discipling them, the next gin, the next wave, I run out of leaders and I'm I'm like George Bailey stuck in in Bedford Falls trying to get out. You know, I want to get out of this cruddy town, you know, this old building alone. You know, I can't get out of here. And Jesus, Jesus basically set them up to reproduce themselves. In fact, I think we miss it, where Jesus turns to them at the Great Commission and says, Reproduce yourself now. What I've been doing with you over the last three years, go make disciples. The key was to make disciples, and that's where if you're doing that, if you're reproducing you, you're gonna reproduce church planning and more, right? Yeah, yeah.

Time Teaching Tactics Framework

J.D. Pearring 19:20

Uh you do talk about the uh time teaching and tactics. Yeah, talk about that, okay?

Peyton Jones 19:28

Well, that's you know, uh, I was at a a conference a little while ago, and the the guy that introduced me said, Well, I don't really know what Peyton's gonna speak about, but I'm pretty sure there's gonna be three circles in it. So, you know, the the cover of both books have circles on them because Plantology had um the three circles of scripture. When the way I found those universal principles was scripture, uh global missional practice, like is it outworking in the world today? So is it biblical and is it still working? And then to find that universal principle, well, when the Spirit of God, a movement strikes, surely you'd see those things re-emerge. So those are the three overlapping circles. That was my criterion for a universal principle. But in discipline, looking at the gospels, I saw three rhythms that Jesus operated in. He operated like you could boil everything except the cross and the resurrection, which were completely unique to him. Uh, everything he trained the disciples in during those three years, they fall into three categories time teaching and tactics. So he spent time with them, or he taught and trained them, or he tactically engaged them in mission. So looking at those three, it became really apparent, JD. Like this was a thing that blew my. Imagine I'm going through this chronological Bible, and I'm I I knew the three T's, I even had put them in church plantology years ago. Um, been training planners with the three T's. But what I did not expect is how it broke open in the gospels. And I'm the kind of writer where I don't want to tell you, I want to show you. Like, I have to prove it. If I'm gonna make an assertion like this, I gotta prove it. So, one of the things I did was um I outlined the three years because this is what broke up into me. And I'll I'll just tell you like year one, Jesus focused on time, year two, he focused on teaching, year three, he focused, he focused on tactics. And so when I say this, I'll give you a quick overview. Year one, Jesus literally uh after getting baptized um and spending those 40 days in the wilderness, um, which by the way was time with his father first. Um, he uh just goes to dinner with John and Andrew. Like if you're the son of God and you've come to save the world, you don't just slow down and go to dinner, right? But he does, and they go get their couple friends and then they meet uh Philip, and uh Philip gets Nathaniel, and now he's got six disciples. And A day or two later he says, Hey, I've got a wedding in Cana. Um, by the way, he settles in Capernaum, he actually moves house to Capernaum and lives there because those boys are there. So he the whole year is about time, but then he invites him to this wedding uh from uh you know where he's at there at Capernaum out to Cana, one day's travel. The wedding lasts seven days, day travel back. You've just met Jesus. Not only have you gone to dinner with him, now you've spent nine days with him, right? Um, and then they start traveling with him to the synagogues. This is all year one. Um, he doesn't hit the road, he's not on his preaching tour. That's year two. But year one, every weekend, the boys go with him to the synagogues. And Eckhart Schnabel, New Testament scholar of missiology, says uh they would have spent two to three months of waking hours walking in that first year because they had the Passover they went to, they had the unnamed feast they went to. I mean, they are just spending time, and all the other gospel writers skipped a year too, the year of action. But that year that is just intimate and slowed down and let me get to know you, that's all in in John. John is the only gospel writer that talks about that year. And so when uh his mom at the wedding of Cana Galley tries to get him to do um a miracle, he says, Woman, it's not my time. Not my time, meaning, and that's important. There is a time, there's a time coming, but it's not yet, and this is early on in year one. So at the beginning of year two, Jesus, they can't find him. It's remember that morning, you know, he he does the the miracle in the synagogue, and then he heals Peter's mother-in-law, and then he heals into the night. That's never happened before, right? It's like something just changes, it's go time, and they look for Jesus that night, and or early in the morning they can't find him, and he's out praying by himself. And they said, Lord, he says, We gotta go, we gotta go somewhere else. I have to leave. Uh, and he says, The time has come. See, it wasn't the time before. Now the time has come. Uh, it was signaled, by the way, by John the Baptist being locked up. So something shifted then. But the time has come. He hits the road, but before he does, going on his preaching tour, he says, For I must pre go to other cities that I may preach the gospel of the kingdom. For this reason I was sent. So uh the next day, uh, they're all fishing, they've been out all night. Um, Jesus uh finds him, he knows, he knows the situation, he knows exactly, hey boys, you know, I need to use your boat, you know. And um, so he gets in and he tells him, Hey, cast your net to the other side. Miraculous catch of fish happens. Peter says, Depart from me, Lord, you've got the wrong guy. The right guys always say that. But Jesus says, follow me and I will make you fishers of people. Follow me and I'll make you into something you're not. So this is the invitation now. The invitation year one was a come and see, just spend time with me. Now, this invitation is follow me and I'll make you. I'm gonna train you into being something. So on year two, they hit the road, and not only does Jesus preach a kingdom, he brings a kingdom. He demonstrates it with the miraculous. But that whole year, the disciples just watch. That's the year of teaching. They hear the principles of the kingdom and they see the demonstration of the kingdom. They learn ministry with a front row seat, eating their popcorn, but they're not in the game yet. At the beginning of year three, Jesus sends them out on their first mission. Prior to that, the end of year two, it says that out of his disciples, he designated 12 to himself, calling them apostles, bringing them near that he might send them out. So now he's he's brought 12 to himself. He's pouring into them specially, and they're his missionaries, as apostolos sent ones. So he sends out the 12, they come back, Lord. You know, they've never done a miracle before. So the beginning of the year three, this is the tactical year. They now have been um excited that God has used them. And then that year is bookended by the sending of the 12 at the first part of the year, sending of the 72 on the back end of the year. So, what happened in between? Jesus is still doing his stuff, but he keeps pushing them. Like, for example, um, he uh he you know, when he tells them you give them something to eat, feeding them the 5,000, 4,000. And it says when they get in the boat afterwards, Jesus is a little frustrated because they didn't learn the lesson of the loaves. Like he has the miracle happen in their hands, and they're supposed to learn about dependence on God. They don't learn it. Um, the trend Mount of Transfiguration, he goes up there and uh you know, they can't cast the demon out down the hill. Right, the three get the special vision, all the supernatural stuff that they're doing. Um, Peter walks on water, that all happens in those months in between those two mission journeys. And again, Eckert Schnabel reckons that each of those mission journeys booking in the year was three to four months each, meaning that the in-between years was anywhere from four to six months. I mean, the in between months were four to six months. So all that year, Jesus is having them do supernatural things um to prep them to leave, to hand them the Great Commission and say, continue the work I started. And it just once you see it, you can't unsee it. And so time teaching tactics becomes a framework of how do you really develop a disciple?

Year One Time With Jesus

J.D. Pearring 28:01

Well, that's amazing. So I'm taking all of this is in the book. Yes. What was the the chronological gospel uh deal that you read?

Peyton Jones 28:15

Yeah, it was um from uh Josh at plus nothing. Um there's a uh you can order it. I think you make a donation and they'll send you three of them. They're just these little brown books. Um, if you go at plusnothing.com, you should be able to find it. Now, I I personally know the scholars who worked on this, and they are a top notch. Like, because there's different uh the you wouldn't see this, by the way. Like they would not have um spelled this out quite the same, right? Um, they they wouldn't use the time teaching tactics.

J.D. Pearring 28:49

No, that's uh that's uh Peyton Jones copyright never misconvention, but but you get a dollar, I think, isn't that true?

Peyton Jones 28:59

You no, but you know, it's funny because uh I always feel like I'm always a little suspicious. If I find some I'm like, no, that can't be right, you know. Some someone had to have seen this. I read uh cover to cover, I tracked down every book I could find to try to. I reread Schnabel's massive two volumes. I tracked down um The Training of the Twelve by A. B. Bruce, the classic, probably the closest book to this um that's out there. Um I I read Comer's John Mark Comer's book, you know. He has a three-part. In fact, I I bring that out that this three-part thing is kind of something that everybody sees, but calls by something different. So um, and they may not break it down into the three years, but like John Mark Comer, I can't remember. I think his was like thinking like Jesus, acting like Jesus. Everybody, you know, Todd Wilson, our mutual friend, he put B do go. You know, be it's it's that time, that's where transformation happens. The the do, you know, when he looks at calling, he sees those three go as like your sending part, the tactical. So everybody sees this, and that that kind of gave me comfort that okay, I'm not completely normally when you come up with something new that hasn't been heard, you're inventing heresy. But um, but it made me a little more comfortable that okay, usually if God's saying something to one person, he's telling a bunch of other knuckleheads the same. So I actually have a chart that shows other people's three-part breakdown that's very similar.

J.D. Pearring 30:32

Well, that's very helpful. Uh you know, sometimes you wonder about the chronological chronological uh rhythm from none of the gospels, but the book of Acts, because it's like, you know, yeah, you have a workbook with this as well, because we're trying to sell some books today. What's the workbook?

Year Two Teaching On The Road

Peyton Jones 30:53

Well, I'm glad you asked, because the workbook is for a different audience, and that's really good to know. So I wrote Dissipology for leaders, and it would kind of be like your like when you buy an electronic uh piece of equipment, you get the big book, you know, the thick one that you never read, but it's got the warranty and everything in there, and it's maybe like 30 pages, 40 pages. But then you got that one slip of paper and it's all fancy and flashy. It's a quick start guide. So, Journey to Disciple Making, a disciplogy journal, it is a full book. Like it get, but it's broken down. It's it's written to the everyday disciple maker in your church who says, I don't want to know all that stuff and how Jesus did it. I just want to get started. Show me, and and what we did is we kind of hid the bones a bit, but we literally take you through the same 28 steps. Um, and I broke it into 28 steps, but we take you through the same steps that Jesus did to train the 12. So it's meant for someone who thinks, I can't make disciples. I know the what, I know the why. Like I know the what is make disciples. Why, duh, because Jesus said to, but I think most people get stuck on the how. And so each each step has a little micro step, just something small you do, you know, every day, something manageable. Now you get people to go through 28 chapters. Yeah, it's not because it's written devotional style. Oh, okay. It's devotional style, and and not only that, um, on through the word, which is one of the ministries I teach for, um, we started the disciplogy plan. So you could literally go through um the um those 28 steps without buying a book. You'll want the book because those 28 steps are going to be an audio guide for 10 minutes and it'll train you every day so you can listen to it. Because we didn't want to have a paywall or some kind of barrier to entry or tell some kid, like, hey, read a book. Because right now, the the people that are taken off with this thing are young people. That has been the biggest um fruit that we've seen so far because they just take it and run with it. They don't they don't even slow down. Um, but we did do a beta test on this with through the word, and 4,500 people signed up um in the first week to do this. And the amount of stories that we're getting, like the the number one thing people say is, I didn't realize it was so easy. Well, that that's kind of how Jesus intended it to be. He meant it to be simple, next step simple. But you know, it's kind of like I don't know about you, JD, but like when I'm scrolling Facebook or or Instagram, I get the ads are like, hey, you old fat guy. And I'm like, yeah, that's me. And they're like, hey, you don't want to be old and fat anymore, right? No. Well, you know, hey, we got this because nobody wants nobody wants to be out of shape. Everybody wants to be in shape. The the thing that stops people is not having a plan, right? Not having a pathway to it. So for me, it was like, okay, I just think people don't believe they can do this. And Jesus believed, just like Peter, depart from me, I'm wicked and sinful man. You got the wrong guy. And Jesus, like, just follow me. So that journey to disciple making is follow me on this journey. You could give this, and I swear to you, you could give this to anybody in your church and have an experiment. Like, like you remember that movie, My Fair Lady, the musical. Um, I I don't think I ever saw it, but I do remember seen it either, but I know what it's about. It's two English dudes, they're gentlemen, and they say that we can take a street urchin, make her into a lady. You and I would be more familiar with trading places, Eddie Murphy. It's a retelling of the same story, right? They can take a street thug and make him into a into a gentleman. So that that's what Jesus did with the 12, right? I mean, there's a reason when he leaves Capernaum that he grabs Matthew, tax collector, and says, Oh, by the way, hey boys, we got a new recruit, tax collector. What in the world? Jesus is he's trolling. He's basically saying, I could take anybody and make them into a disciple maker. And and we had a woman, like, check this out. We had a woman who um she uh was middle-aged, you know, and was like, uh, the for on day one, it's like grab a partner. We're gonna like without telling you, we're asking you to do exactly what John did. Go grab James, you know, what what Peter or Andrew did, go grab Peter, what uh Philip did, go grab Nathaniel. So it's your natural instinct is to go grab someone else. So uh, but we tell him, and she was like, Man, I don't know who I could grab to do this with me. And she's like, you know, maybe my nephew, he loves Jesus, you know, he's kind of on fire right now. She grabs him. They have eight groups of anywhere from six to eight people meeting right now, and this isn't a small group curriculum, it's just that once you start doing this stuff and you start uh meeting with with someone and introducing them to Jesus, they start going, and this always happens to me when I make disciples. Someone like, hey, me and my brother talk about this or my buddy and I, when we have a beer, we sometimes it'll drift into this. We've had a couple. Can he come to this? We'll just be in my garage, you know, going through like first John or something. And um, I'm all I mean, the answer is always yes, you know, and and that's what naturally starts happening as it starts to grow, right?

J.D. Pearring 36:29

So cool, cool stuff. So um, hey, yeah, get the book, disciplogy, and uh, I'm really intrigued by this workbook. I'm gonna I'm gonna look into it uh more deeply. And I appreciate all the work you've put in. Hey, you're starting the church, it's like the I don't know how many you've done before, but what are you learning now? Uh starting the church there. Oh, that's so good.

Year Three Tactics And Sending

Peyton Jones 36:57

Or maybe something surprising. Yeah. Well, um the the thing that kind of hit me before this, and and you'll have to understand when I say this. Um because I planted so many churches now, um it it's not that like I can do it. I mean, I think that's what you learn is you can't do it. So, in one sense, there's a piece of me that kind of relaxes a bunch. Like I'm I'm I'm not it it almost doesn't take faith because I know the Holy Spirit's gonna take me turn up. So God has to stretch me in other ways. But what we're doing right now, this is this is something I'm I'm screwing around with, experimenting with. I typically will teach a 30-minute discussion and then we'll have like a 20-minute discussion. So our church goes an hour and 15. Um I have been playing around because now I've got like a bunch of teenagers in here, and I'm like, okay, what used to be like 10 minutes now is long form content, 30 minutes of content for them is unheard of. So I started playing around. Once we got out of the living room, we got into the building. Okay, this is different dynamics. Um, so I played around with 10 minutes of teaching, 10 minutes of discussion, 10 minutes of teaching, 10 minutes of discussion. And for me, right now, that's working really well. I teach every other week, and we have other teachers rotate in because we're an APES team leadership. So our shepherd will teach. Um, we have someone who's a little more prophetic. Ralph just taught. Of course, you can't have Ralph Moore sit there and not have him teach. He's not one of the leaders per se, but he's kind of like this sage advisor, you know? And um, and everybody teaches differently, everybody gives a different flavor, but the a pest balance in the teaching has been so good. And um, I think what's surprising me is how much more of my shepherd, because that's my weakest on the ape, but my shepherd is so not good. And I was sitting on my balcony yesterday with um one of the shepherd leaders, and he was just saying, you know, my wife and I were just talking about how much you've grown in the last two years, your shepherd partner, and like, buddy, that's that's because you're here. Like that's and he goes, and I think I've become a little more apostolic. And and and so I would say that each church plant, like you, like your question kind of indicates, you learn so much more. And this is the one where I just from day one, the a like I I approach the ape so differently, and it's just so good for the church. The church is healthy in all five of these areas right now, um, in a way that I've never seen another church plant healthy. And those actually are our values. So we use our values now as apes values. Are people prioritized on mission? That's the apostolic. Do people experience the presence and power of God? That's the prophetic. Are people regularly being romanced by the grace of God through the gospel? That's the evangelist. Are people receiving sh uh soul care through transformative community? That's a shepherd. And lastly, um, are they growing in the wisdom of God through the word of God? That's the teacher. And actually, uh in the book, you'll love this because uh chapter 10 takes those five apests and links them to the Great Commission, go, apostolic, um, teaching them. There's the teacher to obey, there's a life transformation for the shepherd, um uh the um oh baptized, that's the evangelist. And then lastly, I'll be with you to the end of the age is the power and presence of God, the prophetic in your midst. And so they were told to do these five tactics uh of disciple making. And so when when you do those five things, that disciple begins to look like Jesus, right? They they actually get formed in a balanced way to resemble Jesus. Like if we're all teacher, right? We call our uh church campus and we're just lecturing people and they get all egg-headed and they don't look like Jesus. But if you have all five of those, so that that's been the surprising thing to me, I think.

J.D. Pearring 41:21

Well, that is great. That is great. Well, hey, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for writing these books. Uh, and I'm looking forward to the next one.

Peyton Jones 41:30

Thank you so much. Yeah, and uh and if you guys want to um you know download the audio guides for the journal, uh you can go to dyssypology.com. It'll tell you so much more than I was able to tell you here. It'll have links to the books, everything, like like JD said, Amazon. Um, but yeah, dissipology.com is is the best place to start.

J.D. Pearring 41:53

Okay, wonderful. I just downloaded the uh audio version from Amazon for the book as we were as we were talking today. Hey, thanks so much, Payton. Thanks for being here. Thanks, JD.

Announcer 42:08

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