Classic Episode Welcome

Announcer 0:01

Welcome to the Leading Conversations Classic Podcast. We've searched throughout all the episodes to find some of the best just for you. If you've been with us from the beginning, you may have heard some of these. If you haven't, enjoy this classic episode. Welcome to the Leading Conversations Podcast, sponsored by the Excel Leadership Network. On each episode, JD Pering will have conversations with church planting pastors and leaders from around the country. You can learn more about how to connect with Excel at the end of this podcast. Let's join JD now and listen in on this leading conversation.

Meeting Jack Hamilton

Announcer 0:45

Welcome to another Leading Conversations Podcast. Today we have the renowned world-famous Jack Hamilton with us. And I believe Jack is uh the Hamilton musical. Is that about you?

Jack Hamilton 0:58

Is that I I kind of wish it was because it's pretty popular. Is that Uncle Alex then? Yeah, Alexander. I don't even think he, I don't even know if he had any kids, so I don't know if I'm related.

J.D. Pearring 1:11

Well, one thing I know about you, Jack, is pretty much everybody knows you. You know everybody. Maybe there's a few people on this podcast who don't know you. They'll know you by the end. So thanks for being listening.

Jack Hamilton 1:22

Okay. It'll be fun, JD. Whatever I can do to help the guys that uh were out there doing the work of ministry. And you know, I I assume most of the folks that might log in are church planters. And of all the guys in the world that need uh some encouragement and hope, it's those men and women that are out there kind of beating the bushes to for the kingdom of God.

J.D. Pearring 1:46

That is true. Um, but we do have a lot of Hamilton the musical fans who I know will be too fans. But let's start start at the beginning. How did you come to faith in Jesus? How did

Loss, Drugs, And A Long Search

J.D. Pearring 1:56

that happen?

Jack Hamilton 1:56

Yeah, I uh my dad died, JD, when I was 12. He left my mom when I was about 10. Had a girlfriend who's very unfaithful to my mom. And so, but he died when I was 12. So my mom raised my sister and I because I had other brothers and sisters. I'm the baby of five. They all moved away. About 18 or 19, I moved out of the house, moved in with a bunch of uh losers like myself. I got involved in a lot of things. Remember, this was late 60s, early 70, you know, right in there, a lot of drug stuff, you know, LSD, smoking wheat, you know, 39 days in a row, I think. But I'd started dating different girls, and this one girl was different, uniquely different. And uh she happened to be a Christian, and she told her youth pastor not to go out with me, and so she dumped me like a lead balloon, and uh she went off to Azusa Pacific University. But I met with that youth pastor for one year, read through some stuff from C.S. Lewis, uh John Stott from England, uh, read through the New Testament. But sometimes I take a half a roll of whites and read through the book of Romans before I would go talk with them because I could read a lot faster. But about a year after I accepted Christ in his office, when I was uh, I think 20, and uh turned my life radically around, moved out of the three of us were living together, doing sinful things, and moved back home. My stepfather, my new stepfather let me live at home. But believe it or not, um I started dating that girl again that dumped me, and uh she is now my wife, and uh I love her, and you know, people say, How long have you been married? We've been JD, we've been married 52 years in a row, in a row, but you know, I always say that because that's kind of fun. But she uh, you know, we started dating again after, you know, she that I became a Christian and and just turned my life around. So it was a pretty crazy story, and I thank God that she didn't believe in missionary dating. She dumped me, which was good advice from her youth pastor. I really believe that, but it also forced me to really investigate who Christ was because I knew nothing. I really didn't. I didn't know a dang thing about the Lord, and it was just interesting. You know, you saw that movie um Chuck Smith's, what was the name of that one just came out? Yeah, I that was kind of true for me. I mean, I wasn't part of Calvary Chapel, but I I started with that youth pastor. He was at a Baptist church, and I would go to that church because I worked on Sundays, and uh, so I would go back in the old days. I used to have Sunday night services. Yeah, I would go Sunday night, you know, kind of a long-haired hippie kid, and uh went to this church. It seemed like everybody there wore suits, they were all rich, they all drove Cadillacs, and I all sat um, I always sat by myself because I was very, I don't want to say unwelcome, but you know, not part of their culture.

Feeling Unwelcome Shaped His Leadership

Jack Hamilton 5:04

The only people that were kind of nice to me were Linda's mom and dad, because they knew who I was and they were kind. Um, but I I I think it's always affected me, JD, when it comes to the church about welcoming people. So I'm very much an includer. I I want to reach out to people that are not, that don't look like you, that don't seem like you. I I'll go into a room sometimes and there'll be people there, and I'll see someone maybe standing off in the corner. I'm just naturally drawn to that person because I want them to feel included. And I I just uh and I think that's been true for our church at High Desert, you know, when I went there. You're great at that inclusion. Maybe that's why you know everybody. Well, maybe I don't know, just the way God made me, and I and part of it I think is just your history, JD. Uh, I remember feeling like I didn't belong. I remember feeling like what am I doing here? And but I but I really honestly was a seeker. I really was somebody that wanted to know who Jesus Christ is and was, and uh so I took that upon myself, you know, to read a lot. And uh in a sense, when you think about it, I was kind of a hard convert, took a year, wasn't something that happened overnight.

J.D. Pearring 6:21

How did you let me just ask this? How did you uh re-up on the dating? How did you how did that conversation go? Well, once once yeah for Christian now, what are you doing Friday night?

Jack Hamilton 6:33

Is that the well, you know, I prayed, I remember praying in his office and and honestly just driving away from that. Usually we'd meet on Thursday afternoons for an hour or two, and driving, I remember I just felt like this burden of my whole life was lifted from my my soul. And uh he actually told Linda that I accepted Christ because he knew that, you know, as you get to know me, you can understand why she really liked me. Just kidding. But so, but he actually told her that I had prayed to receive Christ, you know, when she was off at college. And so that kind of opened the door again. I don't remember if I asked her out again or what, but I know she knew that I had prayed to receive Christ.

J.D. Pearring 7:14

Okay, so you we're gonna call that she pursued you for your stunning good looks.

Jack Hamilton 7:19

Yes, exactly right. That's why we're actually blacked out today.

J.D. Pearring 7:22

Yeah.

From Public School To Calling

J.D. Pearring 7:23

What what uh what caused you to go into ministry?

Jack Hamilton 7:28

You know, it's kind of interesting. I I finished college when you know, graduated four years, and went a fifth year uh to get a teaching credential. In California, you have to go five years to get a credential. And so I did that at Cal State San Bordino, good school for my theology. And uh got a teaching credential, and I actually got a job up in the high desert, you know, Speriaapo Valley as a public school teacher. And so um I kind of struggled finding a church like a lot of young couples do. And I came up here single, married, you know, a few months later, uh, December uh of 1970, trying to find a church. And uh that was a struggle for us, you know what I mean? Uh, because I think we were so tied to that one that she had grown up in, it was just hard to make that transition. But anyway, where I was teaching public school, the librarian's husband became kind of a friend of mine because I became a friend of the librarian. He took me under his wing and we met every Friday morning for uh I want to call it discipleship, uh, mentoring, relationship. And so, you know, going through the book of Proverbs and some other practical things about wisdom. And I really loved this guy. Well, the funny thing was, JD, he was the administrator of a small little Christian school. And uh it was called Hesperia Christian School. And after teaching public school for a few years, I really felt, and it sounds kind of weird, almost mystical, but I felt called to leave public school and go teach with him. Um, and partly really because of relationship. And uh back then, you know, this is 50 years ago, I went from a $10,000 salary a year to $5,100. So almost half, yeah. And uh, but God was in that, so I went to that school a year later, little school of 130 or so, left. Uh he left a year later, a two uh a year and a half after that, I became the administrator of that school. And when I left that school, JD, in 1984, we had 700 and some kids. Uh, because I'm aggressive, I'm ambitious, and uh maybe more so than I should be, but I just really believe when God's in something, we'll see growth. And uh and I believe that that was the the story. And we actually, I think, had the largest Christian school in San Bernardino County, and that's not counting our friends in the Catholic schools or the Seventh-day Adventist schools, but it was just you know that that world. But the funny thing about that, and then it's a long story, but uh we had about 200 and some kids in our high school. I used to bring a young youth pastor to come up and speak at our chapels, and that youth pastor was a guy named Tom Mercer. And so, in reality, I got Tom the job at High Desert Baptist Church in 1984 because I had the search pulpit committee come over and hear him at my school uh to before he was uh called to that church. And uh then six months later I left the school to join him in uh October of 1984. But the funny thing about that, you guys, so go you'll love this too. The the guy that led me to Krause was his dad. Oh wow, his dad was my spiritual father, and I love that man. So, in a way, we both had the same dad. That was his biological dad, and it was my spiritual dad. And so that kind of in a weird way, JD, that was kind of what bonded us together for 38 years.

J.D. Pearring 11:17

So

Second Chair Leadership And Staff Chemistry

J.D. Pearring 11:18

you worked together in the high desert with Tom for 38 years.

Jack Hamilton 11:24

Yes, yeah. How do you do that? Well, you have you have to be patient with your your supervisor. Just kidding. I don't know, you know, I you know, a lot of people ask me because my whole life has been an executive pastor. Uh it's an it's a fascinating, um, I don't know, uh, you know, because people ask my advice all the time about that whole role of being kind of the second chair leader in an organization. And I I think so much of it's just chemistry. And uh I think that sometimes is minimized when we we look at church staff and stuff. Uh I you know, it's I don't know, you know, even all the guys that we've hired, because when I went there, JD, we had about 150 people, and you know, in pre-COVID in 2019, we were about 10,000, you know, with the four campuses. So it was just that growth over time. And uh I think part of it is when you try to develop a good team, you just really need to get the right person. And I I would even say that for our church planters, you know, as they develop and maybe even consider key volunteers and you know, maybe people coming on their board and stuff. It's always just get the right person. And I and I I don't want to minimize giftedness, I don't want to minimize uh education, or I don't want to minimize experience, but dang it. There better be something there that's a connection, some some component, almost intuition. Is this who God wants us to have? Now that sounds like I'm a flaming charismatic, but there's something there. I'm just saying that. Okay, I'm rambling. Ask me another question.

J.D. Pearring 13:07

I will well, it it makes sense to me, just hearing a little bit of your story, that since you were mentored, since you were um uh just coached, that you would be doing coaching and mentoring now because that's just part of your story.

Jack Hamilton 13:23

So you do a lot of that now, right?

Coaching Pastors And Hiring For Fit

Jack Hamilton 13:25

Yeah, I have 10 pastors that I work, you know, with Tia that are in my group. I have another probably three or four that are not officially part of that group. I've done some of that kind of quote professionally for money, you know, uh with different churches. You know, I did one from you'll love this one, from Harvest Bible Chapel, where James McDonald was in Chicago. Did one for one of the things that I do for Bayside is they use me to interview all of their potential pastors. I'm part of the process. So each of the ones that they've hired over the last probably 10 years have kind of had to go through me. And you know what I mean? I think they've given me a little bit of a thumbs up, thumbs down opportunity to weigh in with that. So that's been kind of fun. And that's kind of part of the reason I'm headed down to Southwest Church today and tomorrow to interview uh their final prospect candidate for a discipleship role. Um so there's just certain things that I look for and chemistry and making sure it's a good fit for them and for the individual because I really care about the person. I don't want them to come to a church that's not really good for them. Let's keep the this bigger. It's not all about the church or my church or your church, it's what's best for that person. And that might meet maybe it might be good for the church, but maybe not so good for the person. So I would say to him, I don't think you should come. You know, and I'm not saying that for the church's benefit, but for the guy or the gal.

J.D. Pearring 14:52

That's one thing I just resonate um with you about being just leader-centered. I well, I know you do coaching, I know you do mentoring, but you're also on a whole lot of boards.

Kingdom One And Church Operations Help

Jack Hamilton 15:02

Yeah, I've done a lot of board stuff. So I work with boards, different churches and stuff. Right now, I am the chairman of a new nonprofit called Kingdom One. I don't know if you've used them at all, JD, but that vision came about three years ago where our ex-business administrator at High Desert Church, Stephen Bush, uh, started a new ministry. And my dream, honestly, was to be able to come alongside of smaller and middle-sized churches to supplement their need. And so our focus really was on HR finance. We've done some other things, but so many, especially in California, with all the labor, I'm gonna use a bad word here, crappy laws, uh, most churches are not doing that very well. So, what they can do with Kingdom One is hire us for maybe one day a week or two days a month, and it's on a contract basis. So they don't have to have a full-time HR person or a full-time uh CFO. They can get help from us. We have six full-time people now. We have 12 part-time people. We're helping 43 different ministries. We just started helping um Mount Herman uh because they don't have an HR personnel. They lost theirs till July 1st. So we're doing a lot of that kind of stuff. That on that board, it it really lights my fire to come alongside a church of a 200. Maybe they got a pastor, a youth guy, and a music person or something. But they don't know what the heck they're doing when it comes to HR stuff, uh finance, and uh helping them that way makes me feel really good. So I'm on that board. I'm um at Skyline, you know Jeremy. Uh I the attorney allows me to be on that board, but I can't vote because Jeremy's kind of like my son. He was on our team for seven or eight years, uh doing uh uh something we call seven. It's kind of a church within a church. And then uh I'm also I just started in January. I went back. This is Welcome Back Cotter. You're old enough to know this, JD. Welcome back, Cotter. I went back to Hysferia Christian School. They are now allowing two non-church members to be on their school board. So I'm now back at the school that I left in 1984 as a board member. And so that's been amazing. You must like the board stuff, you must. Well, you know, I have two grandkids there too, and uh that's that's important to me to see them grow in the Lord and and have a little bit of involvement that way with them. So that's been kind of fun.

Guarding The Gate For Boards

J.D. Pearring 17:41

Well, I I want to ask, uh, usually we ask, give us a leadership tip, but uh you've been around a lot. Give us a few. What are your top things off the off the Jack Hamilton um uh just your your brain there? Uh, what are some leadership tips that you'd have for folks?

Jack Hamilton 17:58

Uh I don't know, maybe I'm an idiot. I uh you know, I I don't I don't even know. I've probably read, honestly, JD, if you went to my house here and looked at my bookshelf, I probably have 50 books on leadership. And I I think it's just a combination of all those things that have kind of weighed into my life to help me be what I think God wants me to be. But I again, I I think again, for the guys and gals that are leading out there, it's it's really developing a good team. That that to me is so important. And you know, when I coach and work with these other pastors, about 90% of their problems are either with their boards or with their staff members. And uh so, man, you got to do a better job of being a gatekeeper when it comes to your board. Whenever it, whenever that church plant decides to have a what what will you want to call it administrative board or a board of elders, man, guard the gate. You can't just let anybody on there because people get on there and they're just pain in the butt. You know what I mean?

J.D. Pearring 19:03

And we can't think they all turn into Ron Burgundy.

Jack Hamilton 19:06

That's what I just think, what the heck, you know, and it drives me nuts. You know, I I uh one of the guys that's in my mentor group is a pastor out of Flipside down in uh Ranch Cucamonga, Kevin. But I just was down there a few months ago meeting with their prospective board members to be elders. And I really like that because he actually has a plan where they have meet with these guys for a year before they even decide if they're even gonna be on the board or even eligible to be on the board. And sometimes those guys get their feelings hurt, but so what? I'd rather have that than have the wrong person. And I and I I would think the same thing too, another thing would be on the the gatekeeper component, on developing a good team. It it it every, you know, this is John Maxwell. Every problem can be solved how, JD? Leadership. Yes, every problem can be solved with leadership and the right person. You give me the right person, and we can solve that problem, whatever it is. And and I think it's tougher for our friends that are church planters because they're trying to get some momentum, you know, trying to build the body. And it just seems like quite often, and you can scold me for saying this, but it seems like some of the village oddities start coming to their churches, you know, some of the some of the most unusual characters. And I just think, man, you got to guard again. I mean, we want those people God loves and we care about them, we want them in our body, but we don't want them in leadership, in my opinion.

J.D. Pearring 20:38

So it's really interesting. You're an includer, but you're not an includer in letting everybody on the board. Yeah, that's that's what happens. Hey, let me ask you this. Um, you talked about gatekeeping, talked about making sure you're very careful. How do you get Ron Burgundy off your board? How do you get the wrong person who uh-oh, they're on the board?

Jack Hamilton 20:59

How do you get them off? I uh uh um seriously, JD. I don't know who Ron Burgundy is. Tell me that.

J.D. Pearring 21:05

Oh, he's uh from uh Anchorman, San Diego. Do you know who I am? I'm kind of a big deal.

Jack Hamilton 21:11

Uh I don't know who he is. He must not be too big.

J.D. Pearring 21:15

You missed them the greatest movie ever, Anchorman? Who's who's the guy that um Will Farrell? Will Farrell.

Jack Hamilton 21:25

Oh, yeah, I love Will Farrell, yeah.

J.D. Pearring 21:27

So you gotta you gotta you gotta get that movie.

Term Limits And Advisory Teams

Jack Hamilton 21:30

Yeah, a couple a couple things that I would say, you know, and you know this because you're an experienced churchman, but you know, some some churches even have lifelong elder members, board members. I hate that, and I won't name one, but I'll name a very famous camp in Central California that has lifelong board members, and that stinks because they become too much into ownership, and the ministry belongs to them, and the leadership of the ministry belongs to them, not their new CEO president. A pastor, whatever. So I really am a strong proponent of term limits. Uh, it doesn't mean a guy can't come back on, but um, or gal if they have ladies on their board. But the thing is, uh, I don't like it when they're on there for eternity because there becomes too much ownership in the ministry and it's bad, you know. Even my advice to some of the church planners, and I know nothing about church planners, please forgive me. But when they have asked me questions, you know, I said be slow, you don't create a board, make wait a year or two, maybe call it something else, call it a board of advisors or a consulting group, you know what I mean. Get get the input from the body, from the people in the church, uh, but don't call them elders and don't give them a position that where there's a vote. How's that? How's that sound rebellious, doesn't it?

J.D. Pearring 22:49

Well, that's the what we teach our church planters is uh keep changing the name of that. Um good. We called ours uh what grand opening team. We did transitional advisory group, tag team, we did vision alignment team. Now we have an ABC team, advice breaks, crisis. We got that from Larry Osborne. Yeah, but yeah, we don't use the uh the E-word elder, it just kind of goes hits.

Jack Hamilton 23:18

Yeah, stay away from that. You know, I helped, I don't want to say I I was a board member for a church called Fellowship Monrovia. There was three of us, Mark Little from Bishop Ulmer's Church, me, and Brent Eldridge from uh Arbor Road, and a new pastor named uh Albert Tate. So us four started Fellowship Monrovia. And uh that was a big debate because I honestly, to this day, I felt like we function more as a board of directors than we did like elders. And so even for Brett, I don't want to, you know, he kept calling, are we elders or not? But what I liked is having some churchmen like that, JD, some guys that are experienced in the church world, and then slowly we added church members. So if we had a couple, you know, I would if I'm coaching a church planter, I'd say, hey, maybe get a guy or two that you respect that's got some wisdom and then some experience. He's on your advisory board, and then you maybe, as a year goes on, add a couple people that are godly uh from the body, and then we slowly kick off the guys that are not part of the church. But I like that. I don't know if you do that, but that's what I would say.

J.D. Pearring 24:33

The external board idea that you're bringing up, it's really been interesting because um over the last 10 years, um, I have probably heard 20 different brilliant people like you kind of try to sneak that in. It's becoming more and more of a trend. The the smartest people are going in that direction. The Jack Hamiltons of the world are so um I really appreciate that advice. Let me ask you hey, um, one more one more leadership tip. You talked about the team thing, you talked about guarding the gate. One other Jack Hamilton tidbit for us.

Jack Hamilton 25:09

Um

Oikos And Relational Evangelism

Jack Hamilton 25:10

I don't know. I I think you keep people with how you win them. And uh let me try to give, you know, I'm I'm an Oikas guy, and you know that, JD, but I I believe that, you know, Tom Mercer, he over exaggerates his numbers. But I would say 85-90% of people that we know come to Christ through a relationship. You know, like maybe back in the old days, someone would go to the Billy Graham concert or a Chuck, uh Chuck uh Smith thing, or uh what's the guy at Riverside Harvest?

J.D. Pearring 25:45

Uh Greg Glory.

Jack Hamilton 25:46

Greg Glory, and they don't, you know, you say the guy, hey, when did you become a Christian? How'd you become a Christian? They say, Well, I went to one of these uh quote back in the old days, they used the word crusade, they're not that's not popular now. But they would say they went to the crusade and they and Greg Glory led me to Christ. I don't think so. I think the guy that took you every night of that week that was your friend, your relationship, your co-worker, your buddy, your neighbor, your relative, he's the one that led you to Christ. You might not have prayed with him, but it was that guy. And so we have to get our people to think about the calling on their life for their mission. Their mission is to reach their relational world. Their mission is to read that, reach that eight to 15 people that God has supernaturally and strategically put into their lives. We've got to get our people to open their eyes up, JD, to those around them. They're going to hell apart from Christ. And I just think sometimes, and that's what happens over the course of time in a church, uh, over, you know, years, pretty soon everybody in that church doesn't have any non-church, non-Christian friends. And then we see it in this death cycle. You know, it's on the other side of the hill, going down the other way because they've lost sight of their mission. And God's called us here to reach people. Matthew 28, make disciples. Uh, you want me to preach that longer?

J.D. Pearring 27:16

What no, no, no. That's that's great. And um Tom Mercer will be proud that he got the oikas in in the in the podcast.

Jack Hamilton 27:24

Oh, yeah, he will.

J.D. Pearring 27:25

He he pays me, he pays me for that. Now he owes you lunch and rather than you owing him lunch. Yeah,

Encouragement And Final Next Steps

J.D. Pearring 27:31

right. Jack, I just want to say I just really appreciated you, um, your friendship, your incredible wisdom. Um, you just have this uh great includer way about you, but you're also um you know smarter than Alexander Hamilton, your great, great, great grandfather or whatever. Thank you so much for being with us today. Thanks for all you're doing. Keep up the good work.

Jack Hamilton 27:55

Well, thank you, JD. Thank you for what Excel does. And uh again, God God's put it on your heart and these men and women that serve in Excel, and I know they're struggling, I know they need encouragement. And I would say this to you, brother: the best thing that you can do for those people is help them stay encouraged. The greatest thing you can do for them is to encourage them because that's the battle. And I and I think that's true across the board too. You know, if you're coaching a family, a father, a mother, help them to stay encouraged. Appreciate it. Thanks so much. God bless.

Announcer 28:30

Thank you. Bye-bye. Thanks for joining the Leading Conversations Podcast. We hope that you found it both helpful and encouraging. At Excel Leadership Network, our focus is on the church planter rather than the church. If you'd like to find out more about us, visit our webpage at Excelnetwork.org. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss any future episodes. See you next time with another leading conversation.