Welcome And Meet Jomel

Announcer 0:06

Welcome to the Leading Conversations Podcast, sponsored by the Excel Leadership Network. On each episode, JD Pering will have conversations with church planting pastors and leaders from around the country. You can learn more about how to connect with Excel at the end of this podcast. Let's join JD now and listen in on this leading conversation.

J.D. Pearring 0:29

Welcome to another edition of the Leading Conversations Podcast with Excel Leadership Network. And today we are very happy to have with us the incredible, the stupendous, the amazing from San Diego. Thanks for being here, Jim.

Joemel Delossantos 0:48

San Diego. Those are words I never heard in the same sentence before.

J.D. Pearring 0:52

Thank you so much for having me. Yes. So uh uh tell us what the weather is in San Diego today.

Joemel Delossantos 1:01

Oh, I don't have to look outside. You could take a guess. It is uh it's it's perfect, man. It is probably going to be seven. Actually, it's cloudy, so it might be it feels like what we like to call a San Diego rainstorm. Um, it's maybe a little cloudy, but it's gonna be a beautiful day today.

J.D. Pearring 1:18

So low 70s rather than high 70s, probably.

Joemel Delossantos 1:20

Yeah, exactly. So we'll it's rain raincoat weather. Well good.

Growing Up In A Filipino Church

J.D. Pearring 1:26

Tell us the story of uh Joe Mel.

unknown 1:30

Sure.

J.D. Pearring 1:30

Growing up. Where'd you grow up? How'd you grow up? Uh, when did you come to faith in Jesus?

Joemel Delossantos 1:35

Yeah, man. I am a I born and raised San Diego local. Uh, I used to say go padres when I would say that, but I don't feel like saying it anymore. It's just been a little disheartening. Uh, but I am born and raised in San Diego, man. I came coming to faith. I came to faith. My family helped plant the church that I spent most of my life at uh right before I was born. So I spent my entire life at a small Filipino church, um, planted in National City, came to faith as a kid. We were doing a house church at the time. I remember that. Um, so like Sunday school or kids' ministry was like in one of in the in a bedroom or in the garage, and then the sanctuary was in the living room. Um, and I got kicked out of the kids' ministry because I was just being too rough with the other kids or too loud or something. They just kicked me out, and then I said they sent me a grown-up church and I just heard an old-fashioned uh gospel invitation. And that was at least the first time I recognized and remember making a decision. And like a lot of kids who grew up in church, I'm I'm sure I don't know what the mechanics of soteriology are, and um exactly, and I don't know, but that was when it was pure for me. So yeah, there was that. I you said was it was the other question?

J.D. Pearring 2:45

Call to ministry, or just well, we'll get there, but uh, was it was it in English? Was it Tagalog? What was the church you said? Filipino.

Joemel Delossantos 2:54

Sure, predominantly Filipino church, but it was mostly in English. I think, yeah, a lot of Filipino churches try to do that these days to um you know, I think some of the prayers were in Tagalog when they would get really into it. Um, but I always understood Tagalog too, so I'm pretty sure the service was in English back then.

J.D. Pearring 3:10

Okay, so you grew up in a Christian home. Did you have a did you have a time of rebellion?

Joemel Delossantos 3:17

Oh man, uh not quite to the extent of other kids. Maybe I just wasn't cool enough to get invited to do bad things. Um, you know, I was just I was just a sheltered, you know, public school my whole life, but uh just relatively sheltered and um more rebellious later in life. I think more of the curiosity came in. Honestly, like early years of ministry, not so much things I acted out on, but just curiosity and wanting to play with fires of worldliness because it's like, man, I have been in this bubble my whole life and um I was unmarried and stuff like that, like wanting to just see what else is out there, but no, nothing too crazy in high school. Again, I think just not very cool. I think the one out party I got invited to with alcohol had like their parents were there too. So uh, not very cool.

An Unlikely Call To Ministry

J.D. Pearring 4:09

But you were not a wild and crazy teenager, no, sir. Was there a call to ministry?

Joemel Delossantos 4:16

Uh not in the teen years. So my call to ministry was interesting. Um grew, like I said, grew up in San Diego. I want to get my make sure I got the details right. I had a girlfriend at the time. She was going to UCLA. And I was going to, yeah, right. Yeah. Well, that's an ex-girlfriend, so I'm not too happy with UCLA. Um, but yeah, I want, you know, I wanted to be closer to her. I was I had a full ride to SDSU. Um, not because I had like good grades or good at sports, but my dad was in the military. Um, so I had a full ride to SDSU. And right before that, I wanted to take like a gap year. I heard about gap years like in movies, and I said, that sounds cool. And I go, this is how impulsive I am. I'm at a church that I've never been to for a wedding, and I see a poster for a Baptist college. I grew up in a Baptist church. I I'm so naive. I didn't know that there are other denominations of Baptists. I know there's other flavors. Uh, I've only only grown up and lived and been to one church. So I see a sign for a Baptist college. I see it has a one-year program, one-year Bible, and I figure, let's why not try it out. Uh, I still say I want to do this. I didn't learn that much. I didn't learn enough in youth groups. So let me uh learn something about my body, about the Bible here. Sign up and come to find out it is a hyper fundamental IFB, like hymns only, girls in skirts only, um, King James only. I didn't know, I didn't know this world existed, but I I that's where I am now. I had to go to Walmart the first week to buy new clothes because I had like San Diego board shorts. Um, so sign up for that. And as crazy of a school as it was, and as much as I disagree with so much of the things, um, that was the place where God genuinely, I just genuinely felt the Holy Spirit call me into ministry and tell me that there was show really reveal um that that was exactly where he had me. Asked my parents, hey dad, thanks for serving our country for all those years, but you think I can stay at a private Christian school for four years? And um, he wasn't too happy at first, but he supported that. And uh that's where I got my bachelor's in pastoral theology. Wow.

J.D. Pearring 6:28

So you stayed with it?

Joemel Delossantos 6:30

Yeah, yep. Wrote it out.

Twelve Years In Youth Ministry

J.D. Pearring 6:33

So you felt this call. Um, what happened after college?

Joemel Delossantos 6:38

Sure. Uh I called my pastor at the small church and said, I felt I feel called. Do you know any places where I can work? And he said, Well, we were actually right about to hire a youth pastor out of the Philippines, and his visa didn't work out. And he said, You know, it makes sense that we hire somebody who was born and raised here, somebody grew up here. Would you be interested? And man, I was there for 12 years right after college. I just became a youth pastor, met my wife on a missions trip, and uh spent the large mass of my adult life doing that.

J.D. Pearring 7:14

Wow. So um, let's talk about you meeting your wife on a mission trip. Where was that?

Joemel Delossantos 7:18

Yeah, sure. Um, man, that's an embarrassing part of the story. Uh, it was a short-term missions trip in the Philippines. A sweet lady at her church that runs a youth missions trip every year, every other year. And she has a brother who's a deacon in Toronto, Canada. And she tells him, Hey, uh, would you want to bring some of the young adults from your church to come serve with the young adults from our church? And sure enough, she was one of those young adults, and it was like a summer thing, right? I say it's funny and embarrassing because every year we go on these mission trips, and you know, I've never been in a youth short-term mission trip. There's always somebody who tells all the teens, hey guys, we're traveling across the country, we're traveling to a different country, we're not here to date, we're not here to find the love of your life, we're here to serve the Lord. It was my dad who gave us that talk. And then when he uh found out that his son fell in love with a girl from Canada, he said, I'm no longer doing this talk for teens. Um, clearly it's not being heard. But uh it was, I like to say it was just a summer fling that never ended.

J.D. Pearring 8:18

Amazing. So, did you guys get married right away? Or what happened to that?

Joemel Delossantos 8:23

Oh, I wish that was the case, but no. Um, her father was adamant that if we were gonna get married, we were going, she was gonna spend some time waiting and uh finding a job and working. We were long distance JD for seven years.

J.D. Pearring 8:38

You're uh kidding me. Seven years.

Joemel Delossantos 8:41

Yep. People were calling my father-in-law Laban for making me but yeah, no, we we did it for seven years, and then even after that, man, like just uh visa stuff and just like new government, like we had to go long distance again for almost a year after marriage, just to wait for all that. So I ended up just taking a sabbatical and going to going to Canada just because I couldn't stand to be away from her that long.

J.D. Pearring 9:08

And when it came to living in Toronto or San Diego, um, was that a hard decision?

Joemel Delossantos 9:14

No, no, it was not a hard decision. Um, yeah, it was never much of a question. I wasn't, you know, I never forced her to live here, but she um never entertained the thought of bringing us there.

J.D. Pearring 9:28

Okay. I don't think you you forced too many people to live in San Diego.

Joemel Delossantos 9:32

Yeah, it's just it wasn't a

The Spark That Led To Planting

Joemel Delossantos 9:34

hard ask.

J.D. Pearring 9:34

That's a hard. So um where did the church planting bug come from?

Joemel Delossantos 9:41

Yeah. About 10 years into youth ministry. I'll I'll kind of say even in between that 10 years, the Holy Spirit was showing me a lot because I came out of that Baptist college. Honestly, I drank the Kool-Aid. So I graduated college and I was I identified as a fundamental Baptist. Um King James came to my first youth group with a shirt and tie, uh, that whole thing, and um learned how to play hymns on the guitar and whatnot. First half of my youth ministry was very much, I'd say, driven with like charisma, very humanistic theology in that world. Um, and our small Filipino church had maybe like two or three kids in the youth group. So really tried to grow a lot of it, like self, self-started, right? Like meeting kids on the street, meeting kids at the basketball court. Our church was in a predominantly black neighborhood. So it was a it was a funny-looking youth group because it's a small Filipino church, and yeah, this large black youth group that was, again, just completely driven by humanistic theology and charisma. And that that burnt out really bad about halfway through when you know kids start graduating, they don't feel like they fit in with the church. Um, kids are are asking questions. And uh in that Baptist world, it's very, it's a very small bubble, and it's very whatever the opposite of kingdom-minded is very local, church heavy, no one else, everyone else has it wrong. Um God no more. Exactly, exactly. Man, God had to humble us, it had to humble me immensely during that time period. And it was about like halfway through that where I start, yeah, just God starts plugging me in with the rest of the kingdom, right? Start, I got hired at Fellowship of Christian athletes. Uh, there was another pair of church called Urban Youth Collaborative. Start meeting different people. Like at the time, like the Southern Baptists were the most liberal people that we could imagine. Uh, and then I start meeting Southern Baptists. I'm like, oh geez, they're not that bad. Start meeting some Pentecostal brothers. Oh man, they're not that bad. Uh, Reform brothers, they're not that bad. Um, everything. God just opened my eyes on meeting people. And I'm during this time, uh, I actually that was the first time I met an Excel guy, uh, Pastor Brian Scott, huge part of my life, huge part of my testimony. And just start feeling, you know, this bug, this I like to say, like a maybe a righteous discontentment. I didn't feel any bitterness or animosity towards the church that I lived at or and worked at. Um, but the curiosity for something else started to brew. And, you know, you get pastors saying, hey, you know, you should really look into the next step. And it was hard. It almost felt like because it's when you you work at the church that your parents helped plant, it almost feels like there's disloyalty to consider anything else. Like it would be an insult to my family. Um but I just I knew there was something more, right? So I gave that segue just to uh get to your question. About 10 years in, there was this big like 10-year celebration, um, 10 years in ministry. I finally got ordained at the 10-year reunion of anniversary. And uh yeah, I just felt this burning desire, like, okay, I'm I'm developing this new philosophy of ministry. And I'm still the church that I was working at wasn't as fundamental as the college I went to, but it was still very conservative, very traditional. Um, you know, yeah, it was still King James, still hymns heavy, maybe not hymns only, but hymns heavy. Um, and I spoke to the pastor, I don't know what this is gonna look like, but I just feel like I need to lead something out for adults, like the kids that are graduating youth group, um the young adults, they don't feel like they belong at the Sunday morning experience. They don't feel like they belong at the church. And um could I do like an evening contemporary service at night to uh so try pastoring adults to see, take a crack at it, try writing messages every week for adults, see if it's something that I can do, something that God's calling me to do. And and I did say from the get-gone, who knows, if it grows, you know, maybe a church plant could come out of it. It said that very optimistically, but um no idea what that could look like. And he gave his blessing. Yeah, like we I remember for so for that year, we had to hide a drum set in the baptistry. So, because we were doing baptisms outside anyway. So we had a drum set hidden in the baptistry in the morning, pulled it out at night, did a quick thing of learned a new light settings that we never knew that we had, uh, had a contemporary service at night and just loved it, man. Um loved leading, saw slow growth, but we were seeing growth. Where this transition is to church planting was that mentor, uh, Pastor Brian. One day we're we're meeting, we we're meeting weekly, and he tells me, Hey, I'm I'm in a meeting with some other pastors, and there was a need that was brought up of a church in national city, and that's where our church was originally planted. Is it's a Filipino church, um, a little bit older, and their pastor left and they're looking for a Filipino-American, younger guy. Um, your name came up, like some people mentioned you, and I mentioned that I knew you, and they asked me if I would tell you about the job. And at the time, like, man, again, there's like it felt like it was an act of disloyalty, like to even consider this. Um, but I prayed about it and I was like, Well, what bad could an interview do? Right? Like, it's just an interview, and I'll say no, no big deal. Go to the interview, meet some guys, meet some of the elders, meet the interim. Okay, this sounds interesting. Meet the congregation, preach there a few times, and man, like my heart is fully invested in I can do this. Like my wife and I were looking at me, like, we can do this. I think God has equipped us. We can lead this church, we can, we can cast vision, we can do something in this neighborhood. Um, and we were we were right about ready to sign the dotted line. And then about a week ago, before we sign it, um, one of the elders calls and goes, Hey man, I know you're interested, I know you're interested, I know you're you're all in. Just wanted to double check and make sure if you really read like our bylaws and our doctrinal statements. And I said, I I thought I did, but why do you ask that way? And he says, Well, I just wanted to clarify some of the things and he clarifies some things doctrinally and just kind of practically. And my wife and I feel this sudden conviction of I don't know if these guys are ready for a pastor or if they're just looking for a fill-in, I think someone put it like a chaplain, a fill-in chaplain to just kind of, hey, can you just can you just play by our rules for a bit? Just kind of stick with the systems and uh don't stir any trouble and everything's gonna be all right. And my wife and I felt like that, I don't think that's what God's calling us to do. I don't feel like I have peace with this. But at the same time, I thought last week we felt led to this area, we felt led to to lead a church. But what's that gonna look like if it's not this? And it was the same night. My wife and I just kind of looked at each other, and it was almost like could have it felt like it was at the same time. I'm sure it wasn't, but we just kind of looked at each other and said, Maybe we plant one, maybe we plant a church. Um and we just felt this peace. The Holy Spirit said, Yeah, that's that's exactly what we're calling you to do. So we had grown with the night service from like eight people to maybe 15. So we're like, we're doubling, we're we got this. We that's plenty of people to launch a church and spoke to the pastor, spoke to the church. It wasn't easy for them to hear. Uh, they weren't too thrilled about it at first, but we with their blessing decided that we're going to try and jump into church planting.

J.D. Pearring 17:36

Wow. So what what happened after that?

Starting Naive With Little Money

J.D. Pearring 17:39

Where are you?

Joemel Delossantos 17:42

Let's just say that was about two years ago. And we uh I think you introduced me to someone and you asked, um, you asked me to say, where am I in the church planting journey? And I said, I'm in the third year of the first year of church planting. Um, because we didn't know anything. JD, like you know, I've been at one church my whole life. We didn't know anything about church planning, no networks, no um net fundraising was a foreign concept. Um sending church said, we'll give you $300 a month for a year. And I said, that's more than enough. That's plenty. $300 a month, uh, we could do anything. And uh we found like the day that we said no to that other church, we I found a small Korean church in the area with like a youth room that they were renting for a thousand dollars a month. And I was like, man, could this deal get any better? Like a thousand dollars a month. It was 600 square feet. Like most of your kitchens are probably bigger than this entire sanctuary. Um just super naive. We don't know that. We just we so we register as a DBA of our sending church, take $300 a month, take 15 people that we grew over that year at night service, dive in. Super exciting start, right? You know, you open up a building, packed house. Um, and then the next two weeks, where did everybody go? It's back to the 15 of us, uh, and then it maybe shrank down to 12 of us. And it was it was a struggle at first. And then we start but then we start hearing about these networks, right? Start hearing about these denominations, start hearing about church planting organizations. And a few of them, you know, reached out to us, kind of heard about what we were doing, um, got excited about the vision, the fact that it was a lot of young adults, college-age students that were doing it. Um, start pursuing that.

The Assessment That Crushed Momentum

Joemel Delossantos 19:41

Uh man, this is kind of one of the hard parts of the story to share. And I was wrestling and I wanted to share it, but I feel like it's just such an important part of our story. I won't go into too much detail, but there was one organization in particular that was very, I think, seemed very exciting. It was a very large, large organization, and there was just like promises of grandeur, like, man, you're a this is such a high potential thing. There's X amounts of thousands of dollars that people would love to throw at this. And I'm getting excited because we have nothing. And I'm like, really? Like tens of thousands of dollars. Oh my goodness, what do I gotta do? He's gotta go through this assessment, and then you're gonna pass with flying colors because man, like everyone who knows you has just said all these great things about you. Okay, cool. Yeah, sign up. Um, why not? We uh, my wife is pregnant. He's trying to, we're trying to get the assessment as soon as possible. But I'm like, my wife is eight months pregnant. I don't think we can uh fly out right now. She's like, we're just let's just do it on Zoom. Do an assessment on Zoom. And I think anyone who knows assessments immediately groans once they hear that. Let's just do it on Zoom, let's get it out of the way. Do an assessment on Zoom with some guys like out in the Midwest. And as you would imagine, it didn't end well. Um, it was there's so many things that were brought up, but if I were just to summarize it, it was just kind of a I think maybe a misunderstanding culturally and maybe just body language of who we were. And and and to be fair, to their defense, like we really didn't know what we were doing. Um, so a lot of the things were fair as far as some of the practical stuff, but some of the things that they assessed about our marriage um just felt like cultural and just the misunderstandings that would happen doing a Zoom assessment with people across the country. And they pretty much told us you guys have no business. Well, one guy in a room full of like I think six other assessors felt like we had no business church planting, and he was the eldest. And he said, I'm not, I'm not going to rest until everybody changes their vote to know, to know these guys shouldn't church plant. And that was a huge punch in the gut because we already started. We weren't like, you know, like 20 year olds hoping for what do you think we should do next? We already did it. We're already church planting. Planting. Um, and so yeah, we we consider that. Like, man, should we pull the plug? Are are we stupid? So I start calling mentors, start calling pastors, start calling people that I met. Pastor Brian will be one of them, people that we met over the years as youth pastors. And it was just unanimous um affirmation that no, God has called you to do this. God has called you and your family to do this. And um I think you got screwed a little bit by the style of assessment, but uh stick with it. So so we do it, we stick with it for about a year. Um during that time, I had met um Pastor Shelton Markham. And uh that's a name because he's a huge part of where we are now, but met him soon after the failed assessment at a church planting gathering. And I don't know what it was, man. I could that's a whole other story I won't get into, but the Holy Spirit kind of, I think just drew us to each other, and he just encouraged us. He just gave some encouragement and really helped me redefine what it meant to be a church planter. Because I was, as a youth pastor for 12 years, very system-driven, very program driven, right? Like if you want to see something get done, make the invitation, create the event, get people to show up. And I was good at that. I was really good at it. And I was wondering, well, what the heck? How come I can't people show up to this? And he really helped me see the value of people, so loving people, fellowshipping with people, um, breaking bread as just the primary means of church plant growth. So we change our philosophy, start seeing some things work out. And but about a year into it, we're we feel like we're at a breaking point. Okay, so we've grown a little bit. But at the same time, we our money's out. We're we're broke. That the $300 a month, surprisingly, wasn't enough. Uh, believe it or not, the 20-year-olds did not all tithe 10% of their income. And even if they were, um, you know, their barista income was not keeping the rent at the Korean church. We we had to, we we really wanted to end the lease at the Korean church. Um, we find another church in the area that was considering merging with us, letting us take over their church and their property. And it seemed very promising. Start pursuing it. But it's also like there's so many red flags. So many red flags. Like the Holy Spirit's just telling us this is a bad idea, this is a bad idea. But I'm like, no, this is our only way that we're gonna survive. I don't care about the red flags, we'll push through, we'll push through.

A Residency Offer That Changed Everything

Joemel Delossantos 24:48

Then during a fundraising meeting, uh, I'm I reconnect with Shelton Markham and he throws this offer at us for a church planting residency. He says, Well, how would you feel about changing your trajectory of church planting? Because you want to do Sunday morning services. You're already doing Sunday morning services, you realize you shouldn't be. Um, we downscaled from weekly to bi-weekly to monthly. It was it was ugly. And he goes, I know you're trying to make this happen, but how would it feel if you brought your team, used our facilities, uh, came into our staff for one year, and we are going to pay your salary. We're not charging you guys a penny, we're going to fund you guys deeply. Their church was and is growing at just a rapid pace. And Shelton said, Man, we have no desires to start a third service. We have no desires to build a new campus. We want to see healthy churches planted in every corner of San Diego. And he said, I think you're the guy. I think you're the guy. And this is the group. Um, but would you be open to changing your timeline and letting us resource you? And this is how stupid I am. I said, let me think about it, because I really want to launch already, and I really want to get back to weekly Sunday mornings, and I think I can make things work out with this church. But let me pray about it. So my prayer is, God, make it painfully obvious. This is what I need to do. And he did. He made it painfully obvious. Like the next week, man, everything fell apart with this other church that we were trying to merge with. Um, God just showed us, give Shelton a call. And that was about a year ago that we made that call and said, We, I think we'll do the residency. It makes sense. And it has been the best thing that we could have ever done. I'm sitting here now a year in after launching Sunday evening services um earlier this year, doing that weekly, seeing the team grow, seeing the finances start to materialize. And um, man, God, God's faithfulness and just the journey couldn't be any better.

J.D. Pearring 26:58

Oh, great. Well, that's that's an amazing story. What's

New Timeline And Launch Vision

J.D. Pearring 27:02

the timeline now?

Joemel Delossantos 27:04

Yeah, so now that we've uh we're seeing the growth, we we want to our the vision is to launch with a team of 70. We want to come out of here with 70 people around Easter of next year. We pushed just a little bit to Easter, I think. Um, and we can go back and forth on that really getting the logistics down, but that that's the timeline. And finding a venue, probably in the national city area, um, that we can assume we find something we can afford and do in Sunday mornings come Easter next year.

J.D. Pearring 27:34

Great. Wow. Well, thanks for thanks for sharing all that.

Leadership Tip Love People First

J.D. Pearring 27:38

Um, let me ask if you have a leadership tip for us. You've been kind of on an interesting journey. You've been in ministry quite a while. What's your leadership tip?

Joemel Delossantos 27:50

Yeah, you know, I was thinking about that just right now, and I think I think my biggest tip that I would give leaders is the same thing that Shelton told me when I was just ready to burn out and just crawl into a fetal position. It just goes back to loving people. Love people, people over programs, souls over systems. Um, and of course, like we have to know programs. We have to know systems. Those are, and we learn those things and we get those things, we iron them down in cohorts and things like that. I think far too often we are allured with um just how fast and how shiny things can look like when you I'm just gonna say it, when you kind of disregard people and just use them. That's a terrible way. Sounds terrible, but I think we all know what I'm talking about. Um, seeing churches and a lot of church plants, big shiny vision, big, shiny presentation. Um, it sounds so good and it looks so good, but the guy who called me into it has not checked up on me in months and really could care less about how my divorce is going. Um loving people, not to say that you disregard the systems, not to say that you, you know, of course, we gotta call people, we gotta disciple people and lead them to serve, but just to love them, to genuinely love them, even if that means that things are slower, even if it means that your capacity is just to love and disciple and just genuinely, I don't know why. I I've then this could be even a debated thing. Um, I've heard church planters debate are we called to counsel and do crisis and do um pastoral work while we're planting, or should we outsource that to other churches? And I wrestled with that question, and I've come to the realization that I adamantly disagree with the idea that it's some other church's job to love the people who have committed to your church plan. I mean, yeah, like we're pastors first. Um, we're shepherds first. So I think that's my tip is just to keep loving people. And if you feel discouraged by the systems, the systems, like, yeah, like it's they're like waves, like Rick Warren says, it's they're they're waves. They sometimes it's unpredictable, but you can love people. God's got one person following you, you can love them to death.

J.D. Pearring 30:13

Great. Wow. Well, hey, I appreciate the the tip and I appreciate your story. Um, I'm not sure I've heard the whole thing together like that. So that was uh that was that was fun. Uh keep up the good work, but let us know how we can help. And thanks so much for sharing with us today.

Joemel Delossantos 30:34

Thank you so much for having me, JD. Really appreciate it. This was a good time.

Announcer 30:38

Thanks

Excel Network CTA And Closing

Announcer 30:39

for joining the Leading Conversations Podcast. We hope that you found it both helpful and encouraging. At Excel Leadership Network, our focus is on the church planter rather than the church. If you'd like to find out more about us, visit our webpage at excelnetwork.org. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss any future episodes. See you next time with another leading conversation.